muzzles

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by moondog

But the ON-LEASH dogs your pack of OFF-LEASH dogs come across have AGREED to NO SUCH THING! And that is where animal control laws AND breed bans begin!

Hullo again, Moondog! i won't take the dogs anywhere there are dogs "on-leash". I am aware that it is unacceptable.We have lots of areas here that are private and lots of dog parks where everyone knows each other...We all strive to keep an eye out for each other, pick up poop and be a good example.Also....I do walk a lot of dogs on-leash as well..evrybody gets along great...just a few dogs I'm getting a handle on!

[moondog]

Okay, then...you're making me feel a little better. You wouldn't find my dog romping in an off-leash park anyway. I'd feel really, really good if you switched all those muzzles to basket muzzles, though.

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by moondog

Okay, then...you're making me feel a little better. You wouldn't find my dog romping in an off-leash park anyway. I'd feel really, really good if you switched all those muzzles to basket muzzles, though.

I will ask the GSD's mommy to buy her a basket muzzle...she is doing so well these days I hope she won't need it for long!

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by spidey

Perhaps the off-leash time is done in a clearly-marked off-leash section of a park (there are many of these in Toronto, not sure about Victoria)? If this is the case, it is an entirely different scenario from the ones some of us are imagining.

thanks, Spidey! you are right...it IS a different scenario from what people are imagining. I think when people read something they imagine in their heads what THEIR off-leash areas are like.This is a small, close-knit dog community...each off-leash area is about a hectare in size....lots of room to avoid each other if you want...we all know each other and look out for each other.We pick up each other's dogs poop, and keep an eye out for one another's dogs...nobody comes to these places with a leashed dog...We do have leash laws of course, and there are many dogs I walk "leash-only".but since this is such a pro-dog area there are a lot of great places to go....there is only one other dog-walking company that keeps dogs on leash and that is because they are located right downtown.The other dog-walkers often meet in off-leash areas and we walk together...i just wanted advice on the use of muzzles...which I got...not an attack on my professionalism!i am doing my best to please all my clients....thanks for your post!

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Actually, the pack activity which I referred to in my more serious post was not within the pack, but pointing out how a pack can go after what they consider an interloper (which was the type of incident you mentioned earlier prior to the lab being ripped). That would be someone who was not paying you and volunteering their dog as a subject to risk. BTW, herding dogs are very careful with their teeth as a dog that damages stock risks livelihood and is usually found under the ground rather than on top of it.

Is it the case that there are no leash laws where you are?

Sure we have leash laws! But this is a very pro-dog town and the municipalities set aside areas where you can have your dog off-leash. great places! Huge! Everybody tries really hard not to let their dogs be a nuisance...but occasionally things get rough which is unacceptable which is where my muzzle question STARTED....I did not know that about herding dogs....I thought some like heelers or GSD's were supposed to be tougher but I guess I've been misinformed.In that case I will keep the GSD on a long line until I feel her behaviour is O.K...the "slashed lab" was more of an accident, but I have seen her get too rough with some terriers in our group. (they love it, but another dog might not)She was very sweet this morning...stayed by my side and put her warm little tongue on my fingers as she was walking. So cute! (knock on wood...)

[Judi W]

Too often bad behavior is blamed on herding instinct which I why I wanted to put that idea to rest. Consider how valuable a steer or lamb is to a farmer and then view how he would respond if one was injured. Even those upright breeds more suited to cattle must not run the stock nor damage it. Running takes off weight on those animals who are valued by the pound when they get to market. Ripping can injure stock so that it might never even get to market. A herder moving stock from one pasture to another cannot stop and suture a paniced animal that a dog has ripped up. Yes, a herding dog might be required to bring a recalcitrant head into compliance, but not to injure. Also, dogs know exactly where and what their teeth are doing.

The problem I see is the building of a pack which greatly multiplies behaviors that might never be seen in individual dogs.

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Too often bad behavior is blamed on herding instinct which I why I wanted to put that idea to rest. Consider how valuable a steer or lamb is to a farmer and then view how he would respond if one was injured. Even those upright breeds more suited to cattle must not run the stock nor damage it. Running takes off weight on those animals who are valued by the pound when they get to market. Ripping can injure stock so that it might never even get to market. A herder moving stock from one pasture to another cannot stop and suture a paniced animal that a dog has ripped up. Yes, a herding dog might be required to bring a recalcitrant head into compliance, but not to injure. Also, dogs know exactly where and what their teeth are doing.

The problem I see is the building of a pack which greatly multiplies behaviors that might never be seen in individual dogs.

Great info on the herding dogs!I didn't know any of that stuff!You have been a goldmine of information for me....thanks so much! (and you even used the word "recalcitrant". Excellent!) I know what you mean about building a pack...I'm constantly vigilant.the dogs I walk are always better "one-on-one." But they are generally excellent and i can't complain. I love my job!

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

Great info on the herding dogs!I didn't know any of that stuff!You have been a goldmine of information for me....thanks so much! (and you even used the word "recalcitrant". Excellent!) I know what you mean about building a pack...I'm constantly vigilant.the dogs I walk are always better "one-on-one." But they are generally excellent and i can't complain. I love my job!

I've bitten my tongue a bit throughout this thread, but I am compelled to contribute the following:

It's good you love your job now. You might be thinking otherwise after your pack of loose dogs turns to their instincts and does untold amounts of damage to someone else's dog, each other, another human or YOU because all of the sudden out of nowhere *BAM* a fight erupts. Muzzled or not muzzled, this simply spells trouble to me.

I've been in the middle of a multiple dog fight, it ain't pretty, and it's VERY dangerous.

I do hope that nothing harmful ever comes of your venture, I truly do. Throughout this thread, however, I have been shaking my head while visualizing everything that can possibly (and inevitably will) go wrong in situations that you've described.

The liability of the situation you put yourself in (and the general public) is the stuff that BSL is made of. It matters not if you are in a designated 'dog zone', or whatever you wish to call it. If the dogs your have in your care are placed into a group together, they will, in short order, become a pack of their own. It's nature. When that happens, they will behave as a pack does.

It would be much more beneficial to your client's dogs to be walked ONE on ONE, and have some nice enjoyable time with you. This leads to a stress free, under control situation. Dogs don't need the company of other dogs to enjoy life. I can't imagine even allowing any of my dogs into situations like you have described.

I've been knocked on my kiester by ONE dog of moderate size, I can't imagine walking 7 or more dogs at once. That's downright dangerous. The majority of pet dogs have little to no leash manners, rarely have a reliable recall, and add the distraction of 'the pack' and an interesting target, and you can say bye bye to all the questionable training they may have ever received. After all, you're walking these people's dogs because they don't have the time - which leads me to believe they didn't have the time to train these dogs in the first place.

Good luck with your venture. I hope you stay in one piece.

[macho rottie]

F.Y.I...it was the Digger the Lab's mom who paid for 12 stitches and a night in the hospital, not the GSD mom even though she offered....IT'S THE CANADIAN WAY!!! (LOL LOL) I couldn't believe it...

I don't think so! If your dogs hurts mine...YOU are paying for the stitches and medical care. We do have leash laws here in BC. Mind you, some people figure it's their god given right to walk their dogs off leash and let them crap on your lawn.

[brunie's mom]

As a dog owner I would never let my dog be walked in a group...let alone have my dog running free with a pack of dogs in a city park.

I make my living working with dogs everyday. I have a small boarding kennel out in the country on 50 acres. I have a fenced in dog yard and do let the dogs play together while I supervise...but they are broken up into play groups.

I only let 2-3 play together at a time and that is only after questioning the owners to find out if they are sociable and like other dogs. If I am not sure about a dog, they go out alone to have a sniff or play ball. Some breeds I don't even bother ever letting them play with other dogs....German Shepherds, Huskies, some Terriers and Rotts...just not worth it.

When I walk the dogs ( which I do 3 times daily), I only take out one at a time unless they come together and I know I can safely walk them.
If the dog cannot walk without pulling....they do not go. It's not my job to train them how to walk.

I guess the more dogs you take for a walk at a time....the more money you make?? It may be safer and easier and less stressful to take fewer dogs.
Also pick and choose the dogs you like or are easy to handle.

Gina

I have been doing this for almost 13 years now....luckily I have never had a dog get hurt or aggressive with other dogs. I watch body language and can see when things are getting out of hand and divert their attention or back in they go and play time is over.

[Ironbark]

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

I did not know that about herding dogs....I thought some like heelers or GSD's were supposed to be tougher but I guess I've been misinformed.

All working ACD's I've known have been very 'free' with their teeth, mine have damaged stock when working. I've seen GSD's working sheep in Germany, they had their incisors filed down so they couldn't injure the animals.

[Judi W]

Well, they wouldn't last at any farm I've worked on and they would get a great big "thank yooooo" from the judges at a stock trial as well.

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

I've bitten my tongue a bit throughout this thread, but I am compelled to contribute the following:

It's good you love your job now. You might be thinking otherwise after your pack of loose dogs turns to their instincts and does untold amounts of damage to someone else's dog, each other, another human or YOU because all of the sudden out of nowhere *BAM* a fight erupts. Muzzled or not muzzled, this simply spells trouble to me.

I've been in the middle of a multiple dog fight, it ain't pretty, and it's VERY dangerous.

I do hope that nothing harmful ever comes of your venture, I truly do. Throughout this thread, however, I have been shaking my head while visualizing everything that can possibly (and inevitably will) go wrong in situations that you've described.

The liability of the situation you put yourself in (and the general public) is the stuff that BSL is made of. It matters not if you are in a designated 'dog zone', or whatever you wish to call it. If the dogs your have in your care are placed into a group together, they will, in short order, become a pack of their own. It's nature. When that happens, they will behave as a pack does.

It would be much more beneficial to your client's dogs to be walked ONE on ONE, and have some nice enjoyable time with you. This leads to a stress free, under control situation. Dogs don't need the company of other dogs to enjoy life. I can't imagine even allowing any of my dogs into situations like you have described.

I've been knocked on my kiester by ONE dog of moderate size, I can't imagine walking 7 or more dogs at once. That's downright dangerous. The majority of pet dogs have little to no leash manners, rarely have a reliable recall, and add the distraction of 'the pack' and an interesting target, and you can say bye bye to all the questionable training they may have ever received. After all, you're walking these people's dogs because they don't have the time - which leads me to believe they didn't have the time to train these dogs in the first place.

Good luck with your venture. I hope you stay in one piece.

I guess it might kill some of you to know that when all the dog-walkers and owners get together in the mornings for our walks we often have 30-40 dogs walking nicely together at a time...(I'll probably regret saying this).(we aren't in a city park fyi).This thread was supposed to give me advice on my use of a muzzle occasionally for safety issues and Judi w. very nicely has answered that for me. The on-leash/off-leash thing is personal choice and I don't think it's wrong for dogs to be walked together off-leash in CERTAIN AREAS as long as everyone involved AGREES. I just don't.Sorry.The only people EVER to complain about this have been the people on this Website. I appreciate everyones opinions, but I think enough is enough already! Judi, thank-you for answering my question.

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by macho rottie

I don't think so! If your dogs hurts mine...YOU are paying for the stitches and medical care. We do have leash laws here in BC. Mind you, some people figure it's their god given right to walk their dogs off leash and let them crap on your lawn.

Why would I walk a dog loose in a neighbourhood and let it crap on someone's lawn???FYI....I offered to pay for the stitches (even though they signed a waiver...)BOTH parties refused to have me pay for it.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

I guess it might kill some of you to know that when all the dog-walkers and owners get together in the mornings for our walks we often have 30-40 dogs walking nicely together at a time...(I'll probably regret saying this).(we aren't in a city park fyi).This thread was supposed to give me advice on my use of a muzzle occasionally for safety issues and Judi w. very nicely has answered that for me. The on-leash/off-leash thing is personal choice and I don't think it's wrong for dogs to be walked together off-leash in CERTAIN AREAS as long as everyone involved AGREES. I just don't.Sorry.The only people EVER to complain about this have been the people on this Website. I appreciate everyones opinions, but I think enough is enough already! Judi, thank-you for answering my question.

Nope, doesn't kill me, I won't be within 1000 square miles of you. Not complaining, just making it clear that muzzles are the least of the issues you'll likely deal with.