muzzles

[Rottlva]

[quote=StephanieandToby]Ahhhh, yes...see...this is my dilemma....owners ask for off-leash walks and that is the service I provide....owners here also agree to be responsible for any damage their dog may cause...but I would rather avoid it (obviously)That's also an excellent point about the dogs being "rendered defenseless". QUOTE]


Stephanie, I think this is a call you have to make as a professional. I know for us, there was no question as to weather or not dogs were to be walked leashed or not. People do ask from time to time if we do take animals to dog parks, or walk them off leash. I tell them no. It is too difficult to watch and be responsible for an animal's (let alone many animals') behavior in a dog park or off leash. Too many things can happen, and since these animals aren't mine, I never take that risk. I spoke of the insurance issue being a big factor, safety of the animals is another factor....People can exercise thier dogs how they like, but in our care we take the safest route we can, and for us, that means on leash. I assure you, if you are a good, skilled handler, and provide an honest, well priced service, people will use you, leashes or not!

I also, as the rest, fear dogs running around with a nylon style muzzle on....since they can't open thier mouth wide enough to pant properly, they can't cool themselves, and are being set up for overheating.....

[Rottlva]

Stephanie, I think this is a call you have to make as a professional. I know for us, there was no question as to weather or not dogs were to be walked leashed or not. People do ask from time to time if we do take animals to dog parks, or walk them off leash. I tell them no. It is too difficult to watch and be responsible for an animal's (let alone many animals') behavior in a dog park or off leash. Too many things can happen, and since these animals aren't mine, I never take that risk. I spoke of the insurance issue being a big factor, safety of the animals is another factor....People can exercise thier dogs how they like, but in our care we take the safest route we can, and for us, that means on leash. I assure you, if you are a good, skilled handler, and provide an honest, well priced service, people will use you, leashes or not!

I also, as the rest, fear dogs running around with a nylon style muzzle on....since they can't open thier mouth wide enough to pant properly, they can't cool themselves, and are being set up for overheating.....

[Rottlva]

Sorry about my double postings. Stephanie, you are a junior member, so I can't PM you. There are some wonderful resources for professional pet sitters/dog walkers here in the US which you can tap into.

National association of professional petsitters
http://www.petsitters.org/

Petsitters International
http://www.petsit.com/

www.petsitters.com

All have professionals who may be able to help you steer in the direction of saftey without compromising your business ventures too much!

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by moondog

Well, if they need to be muzzled and you can't/won't/don't provide a muzzle that they can breathe and pant properly with, then you don't have a dilemma, or the dilemma you have is misconstrued - because you would be remiss to allow any romping under those circumstances.

The owners have "said" they will assume responsibility for any mishaps - but you'll never really know until one occurs. What people say and what people do can be two very different critters when real life responsibility comes into play. Will you accept responsibility if one of these romping dogs drops dead of a heart attack because it couldn't breathe?

Once again....the muzzles i use are adjustable or basket muzzles....I would never muzzle a dog to the point where it couldn't pant or breathe...I'm not a moron....the one GSD that wears a nylon muzzle doesn't exert herself and she can still pant and eat a cookie..(although a small cookie)..how bad can that be??I am amazed at how things can be twisted to make me look like a sadist!Yeesh! Also, FYI...my clients sign a waiver assuming responsibility drawn up by a lawyer and in Canada dogs are considered "property". (as awful as that sounds...!)Is there anyone out there who thinks that properly muzzling a dog for public safety is a GOOD idea?

[Judi W]

What you have with your dog group is a dog pack. That is why they would tend to go after an interloper and some with an eye to do damage. Unless you have exclusive use of the dog friendly area that you are using, other dogs and people are going to be a possibility and there is a real possibility of a serious fight. If one gets started you should expect even your peaceful ones to attempt to join in. That is how dog packs function. I am pretty certain that your area would have a leash law so if anyone ever gets hurt in a fray it could be quite a serious matter. I have a problem visualizing people who would pay someone else to take their dog out and break the law with the risks involved. Usually it is the person who has the dog in his/her keeping that is liable, not the owner. The person who has posession and control (or lack of control) and a loose running dog pack has very shaky control. That is simply a fact of packs which is why loose running dogs can be such a hazard. At most dog parks there is an owner for each dog which is somewhat a mitigating factor.

There has been extensive research on the use of muzzles with aggressive dogs and they do inhibit the aggression. A dog is much less likely to start a fight when its weapons have been restricted so muzzling makes sense. What does not make sense is creating a dog pack and letting them run free.

I think the thing I find most disturbing is that you say you only muzzle with the owner's permission which means that if you have a stupid owner who has no concept of what a dog fight looks like and doesn't want their fur baby muzzled you don't use one. I would suggest that you have a rule that if you deem a dog should be muzzled, it will be regardless of the owner's desires. That rule to be followed or the dog doesn't go off lead. Easy enough to have such a rule or Fido can stay home or on leash.

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

There has been extensive research on the use of muzzles with aggressive dogs and they do inhibit the aggression. A dog is much less likely to start a fight when its weapons have been restricted so muzzling makes sense. What does not make sense is creating a dog pack and letting them run free.

I think the thing I find most disturbing is that you say you only muzzle with the owner's permission which means that if you have a stupid owner who has no concept of what a dog fight looks like and doesn't want their fur baby muzzled you don't use one. I would suggest that you have a rule that if you deem a dog should be muzzled, it will be regardless of the owner's desires. That rule to be followed or the dog doesn't go off lead. Easy enough to have such a rule or Fido can stay home or on leash.

Having my group of dogs on leash and being approached by a strange dog who started a fight has happened to me several times in the past.It created a dangerous situation with all the leashes being tangled and me sitting on the instigator.(sp.)I understand the whole pack theory and I've been tangling with what to do for awhile...it's hard to explain...half the people in this town show up at the off-leash areas with more than one dog (a pack)There is very rarely an incident in this area.Off-leash dogs seem more relaxed and happy. As for your second paragraph...I only muzzle with the owner's permission or the dog stays on the leash...that is my rule...the owner usually gives in...but if the dogs behaviour improves with training I usually take the muzzle off to see how they've progressed and I've had success so far.I do have some experience with training and work occasionally with professional animal handlers. Out of a client base of about 80, only 5 dogs need a muzzle...i see no problem in using one and I see no problem with dogs being off-leash getting exercise...there is always a risk walking dogs and that's the profession i chose.(glad I didn't try being a writer!) So far so good, and thanks for your great input!!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

Once again....the muzzles i use are adjustable or basket muzzles....I would never muzzle a dog to the point where it couldn't pant or breathe...I'm not a moron....the one GSD that wears a nylon muzzle doesn't exert herself and she can still pant and eat a cookie..

If she can pant and eat a cookie with a nylon muzzle on, she can bite, too!

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

Is there anyone out there who thinks that properly muzzling a dog for public safety is a GOOD idea?

I think you missed my first post...

Originally Posted by moondog

If a dog has a propensity to use its teeth on others, I'd sure prefer to encounter the dog with a muzzle on!

.

[StephanieandToby]

I'm sorry, Moondoggie!! I've been answering so many things I can't keep my head straight...I just wanted you to know that the GSD I muzzle doesn't wear one because she fights...her herding instinct is so strong that she "herds" other dogs and nips at their flanks and thinks it's great fun!!Well, she caught Digger the lab on his side with her big tooth and he needed 12 stitches. The muzzle is just tight enough that her jaws can't open to "slash" anyone again...but she can still eat her grub.I am just starting now to remove the muzzle and she has learned the word "gentle" and Digger is even playing with her again!! However, as soon as any strange dog comes by I quickly muzzle her just in case..but she's stopped showing interest...I've also been using a long-line on her which helps as well...hey! F.Y.I...it was the Digger the Lab's mom who paid for 12 stitches and a night in the hospital, not the GSD mom even though she offered....IT'S THE CANADIAN WAY!!! (LOL LOL) I couldn't believe it...

[Judi W]

Perhaps this Canadian way is what is stimulating the broad breed bans north of the border.

[angel girl]

Don't think its the Canadian way. If someone who was supposed to be taking care of my dog and brought it home needing 12 stitches because they could not control another dog they were walking they would DAMN WELL be paying for it, not me! And I would make sure every dog owning person I knew, knew what happened.

And how would one of your clients feel if you brought back a dog with broken ribs because I protected my on-leash dog from a free-roaming back?

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Perhaps this Canadian way is what is stimulating the broad breed bans north of the border.

What does that comment have to do with one owner very nicely paying for another dogs error?The cut on Digger's side wasn't done out of aggression...her tooth caught under his skin...the behavior we are trying to curb is the herding and nipping...she thinks it's play and I have to get her to understand that it is unacceptable and too rough. There are a few districts that have banned Pit Bulls in Canada...I think one town in Alberta started it and the serious dog bites went from 174/year to about 25...that said...(I think it's hearsay)I don't see the point in banning breeds because there will always be another large dog to replace the one banned. Any breed can bite...my neighbours have an Akita so vicious it takes 2 people to walk it, but my boyfriend has an Akita who is an "Angel-pudding." There are also Insurance Companies here that won't insure your home if you own a "Dangerous Breed." Crazy!!! I think it's tough on the municipalities though, because BC has such a large drug trade and these dogs are guarding grow-ops and crack-houses, etc. I'll agree that there are just too many Pitt Buls and Rottweilers running around owned by REALLY irresponsible people here. It's frightening. I think it's "easier" for the Government to ban a breed than to clean up the mess and educate people on responsible dog-ownership!!Isn't that awful to say? There was an incident in my neighbourhood recently where a Rottweiler attacked a Shi-tzu and the letters to the paper came pouring in about banning Rottweilers in our area.(Upper Crust neighbourhood...they think they own the world!) I wrote a positive letter to the paper and I can't believe how many great phonecalls I received insupport of rottweilers!There is hope yet!!!

[StephanieandToby]

Originally Posted by angel girl

Don't think its the Canadian way. If someone who was supposed to be taking care of my dog and brought it home needing 12 stitches because they could not control another dog they were walking they would DAMN WELL be paying for it, not me! And I would make sure every dog owning person I knew, knew what happened.

And how would one of your clients feel if you brought back a dog with broken ribs because I protected my on-leash dog from a free-roaming back?

**sigh** Here I am defending myself again... I am being ASKED by the owners of these dogs to walk them OFF-LEASH...They are FULLY AWARE of the risks involved..(in black and white!)It must be worth it to them or they wouldn't employ me...some people comes on walks with me just to see what it's like....the stitches were not caused by aggression....it was more of an accident....I am well-known and respected by my peers and the people who use the off-leash areas......these incidents are far and few between...it is rare for a professional dog-walker to go through life without an incident...on-leash or of as i expressed earlier.f..A dog and his master creates a "pack" ...not just the dogs in my care...And as for the "Canadian Way " comment people seem to hate...it was done in fun as you can see by the comment:"I couldn't believe it!" There. I'm done.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by StephanieandToby

I am being ASKED by the owners of these dogs to walk them OFF-LEASH...They are FULLY AWARE of the risks involved..(in black and white!)

But the ON-LEASH dogs your pack of OFF-LEASH dogs come across have AGREED to NO SUCH THING! And that is where animal control laws AND breed bans begin!

[spidey]

Perhaps the off-leash time is done in a clearly-marked off-leash section of a park (there are many of these in Toronto, not sure about Victoria)? If this is the case, it is an entirely different scenario from the ones some of us are imagining.

[Judi W]

Actually, the pack activity which I referred to in my more serious post was not within the pack, but pointing out how a pack can go after what they consider an interloper (which was the type of incident you mentioned earlier prior to the lab being ripped). That would be someone who was not paying you and volunteering their dog as a subject to risk. BTW, herding dogs are very careful with their teeth as a dog that damages stock risks livelihood and is usually found under the ground rather than on top of it.

Is it the case that there are no leash laws where you are?