POSITIVE Versus NEGATIVE Reinforcement: A Human Perspective

[alexav]

A brain exercise and food for thought...

POSITIVE Versus NEGATIVE Reinforcement: A Human Perspective


Imagine that an elderly neighbor calls you and asks for help moving some heavy furniture.

This neighbor tells you where to put the new furniture and is very clear in her directions. “Yes, right over there by the window...PERFECT! Wonderful!” And the next piece, “Oh dear, not there, it really doesn’t fit there, does it? Let’s try it over there....Great! I love it there!”

As the last piece of furniture is placed to her enthusiastic satisfaction, she lets you know how happy she is about the nice job you did. Then, she hands you a $100.00 bill and a plate of the best cookies you ever tasted!



The next time this neighbor calls and asks you to help her, how eager are you to answer?



Another neighbor calls and asks you for the same favor. You arrive and ask where the furniture should go. She says, “Oh, I don’t know.. Just put it in there somewhere...” So you set about your task with the first piece, putting it where you think it would look best when, WHAM! She smacks you in the back of the head with her purse! “NOT THERE!” She says... “I DON’T LIKE IT THERE!” You are confused, and rightly so. So you try another spot hoping you get it right. CRACK! A kick in the shin tells you that you were unsuccessful.

(Now bear with me here...I know that anyone in thier right mind would have left by now, but I’m trying to make a point.)

So you keep trying to avoid the old lady’s anger and second guess just what the hell she wants done with this stuff. You go into avoidance behaviors and start thinking of excuses why you have to leave and soon! Your guts are in a knot and you are hoping that at least she will make up her mind and start telling you clearly where she wants these items placed so you can get the hell out of there...

2 hours later, bruised and battered, wondering how you could have gotten yourself into this, she finally seems satisfied. As you leave, she tells you that you really should watch some of those decorating programs on cable TV ‘cause you sure don’t know anything about where furniture should go.

The next time this neighbor calls how eager will you be to answer?


Now ask yourself these questions;

What if the second neighbor paid you twice the amount of the first neighbor after the job was finished. Would you feel better about the experience and look forward to her next call?


What if the first neighbor hadn’t been so clear in her directions, yet still surprised you with the payment. Would that make you want to avoid helping her in the future?


What if the second neighbor had been clear enough in her directions that you only got whacked once?

What if the first neighbor didn’t pay you at all? Or just gave you the cookies?


What if the second neighbor offered you $100.00 to come help her again?



I hope that this example helps to get you thinking about positive and negative reinforcement in your everyday training. Compulsion and Negative Reinforcement vs Drive Shaping and Reward Based Training.

And lets not forget the importance of timing and giving good, fair and clear direction!



In the above examples, you would have a choice whether to be involved in the situations. A dog has no choice who trains them.

Which neighbor more closely reflects your training methods?
_________________

[sophie's-mom]

Question! What if the second neighbor said to put a piece of furniture next to the WIDE window and you put it in the doorway instead?

What if the first neighbor told you to put the piece near the entryway and you saw a butterfly that caught your attention before you got there?

[SonnyRott]

So, to answer your questions:

Q: What if the first neighbor didn't pay me at all and just gave me cookies, would I come and help her again because she was nice?

A: Probably, but I'd have to check my schedule.

Q: What if the second neighbor paid me twice as much as the first neighbor and then offered to pay me $100.00 to help her again even though she was ornery, would I do it?

A: Probably, but I'd have to rearrange my schedule.

I get your point. But in these hard times, a job is a job! And who knows, the cantankerous old lady might mention you in her will!

[flyballmom]

Wow, Christy, a great analogy! Puts it in terms we humans can understand!

[alexav]

Originally Posted by sophie's-mom

Question! What if the second neighbor said to put a piece of furniture next to the WIDE window and you put it in the doorway instead?

What if the first neighbor told you to put the piece near the entryway and you saw a butterfly that caught your attention before you got there?

LOL, Then there would have to be a little attention-getting wouldn't there?
Hopefully, she'd try a ladder of correction. A tap on the shoulder and an "ahem" before deciding if a WHACK upside the head was really necessary.

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

.....And who knows, the cantankerous old lady might mention you in her will!

Now that's what I call "FOOD DRIVE"!

[alexav]

Originally Posted by flyballmom

Wow, Christy, a great analogy! Puts it in terms we humans can understand!

Thanks FBM...I know the examples are in the extreme but I've been trying to think of a way to get a couple of local newbies here to start thinking about the choices they are making when training thier dogs. (We actually have a person that trains with us occasionally that fits neighbor #2 to a T! )
I thought I'd try the concept out on you guys first to see what kind of response I get!

[flyballmom]

If I were a dog I would probably BITE neighbor #2... On second thought I'd probably bite neighbor #2 myself...

Originally Posted by alexav

Thanks FBM...I know the examples are in the extreme but I've been trying to think of a way to get a couple of local newbies here to start thinking about the choices they are making when training thier dogs. (We actually have a person that trains with us occasionally that fits neighbor #2 to a T! )
I thought I'd try the concept out on you guys first to see what kind of response I get!

[moondog]

LOL, Beth...that's right! And if neighbor #2 was the first one I helped and neighbor #1 saw my behavior, I bet neighbor #1 would never ask me for help in the first place!

[poohbearsmom]

Christy... There's also a little game that's fun for newbies in an obedience class.... You're probably familiar with it...

Let one person volunteer to be 'The Dog'.... Only you know what you want of 'the dog' (Often, the chosen 'behavior' is to pick up a notebook, or a leash off a chair) .... so, as 'the dog' moves about the group, training ring, house, whatever, the poor little 'pooch' only gets a 'Good Dog', or 'Bad Dog' response from you.

i.e. ... 'The dog' moves towards the chair the leash is hanging over... you say ' good dog'... the subject then changes directions and gets a 'bad dog'
from you.... and you continue to 'good dog' and 'bad dog' the person until they FINALLY understand what you expect from them....trust me, this can take a while....

LOL.. I happened to be the 'volunteer' for this project in one of my first obedience classes.... and I tell you, this exercise in frustration (it's VERY frustrating being 'the dog' and not knowing what is right and what is wrong...)
really brought home to me how vastly different our species are in the communication department, even though we're very similar in the way that we learn.

[alexav]

Yes, Elisabeth...
The old "hotter colder" game we played when we were kids. (Before nintendo and X-box, LOL)
With this one particular person, I'd like to show them with a fork in thier backside! "Bad dog"> POKE! ... "good dog"> softer poke with continued pokes just to make sure they are paying attention.
The "oldsters" here know I am not a wimp when it comes to training dogs. I use prong collars and electricity where appropriate and I have had to make a Christian of a few in my time but a CTJ meeting for scooting on a 30+ minute honor down? COMEON!
Witnessing this type of "training" multiple times gave me the idea to find a new way to try and explain motivational training to people that are undecided or are at least open to suggestion. My city is chock full of force based trainers and some of my "advanced" students come to me with a dog that hates to work or are so flat in thier performance that they lose too many points in the ring. They typically don't see this as a big problem until they see the difference in thier dogs attitude. (And in thier scores, teehee )
This person I am talking about thinks that by a token throw of a tennis ball at the end of a grueling 20 minute session complete with so many unfair, overly harsh, inconsistent, vocalization producing, prong collar corrections that I lost count, makes her a "Positive trainer"!
Too bad she's totally not open to learning. My heart aches for her dogs.

[diddybopper04]

Originally Posted by alexav

Yes, Elisabeth...
This person I am talking about thinks that by a token throw of a tennis ball at the end of a grueling 20 minute session complete with so many unfair, overly harsh, inconsistent, vocalization producing, prong collar corrections that I lost count, makes her a "Positive trainer"!
Too bad she's totally not open to learning. My heart aches for her dogs.

I'll be surprised if she does not see a dog coming up her arm eventually if she continues to train like that.

Poor dogs.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Excellent analogy...it SHOULD cause 'paws' for thought. If only humans would put away their aggressive natures and realize that dogs are sentient beings, dogs would be so much better off all round as well as in training situations. Ever heard of class starting and ending with 3 to 5 minutes of canine massage ? Great way to begin and end by grounding so the learning can take place and be set.

[spidey]

It sounds to me like this person is afraid of her dog, and feels the need to behave aggressively toward it because of that fear. There is a big difference between training using fair, reasonable corrections after a dog has already learned a behaviour, and being aggressive toward your dog from the get-go (as Jory said, this is aggression toward the dog, and aggression is often based on fear), and it sounds like this person is clearly the latter. Depending on what kind of dog she has, like diddybopper, I wouldn't at all be surprised to hear that her dog finally decides it can't take it anymore and has to take its owner out to protect itself. How terribly sad. Is there really no way to approach her about this?

[Ilovemypuppy]

I agree Amanda. I always wonder what the BIG hurry is with the 'yank and crank' trainers. If it's instant gratification, then the last place they should be is on the human end of a leash. If it's some sort of macho aggressive tendencies, then training dogs is the LAST place they should be.

[MontanaRott]

Great analogy Christy! I read it to Phil to repeat to an idiot he works with who put an E-Collar on a 15 week old Lab pup to teach it a SOLID RECALL!!!