Herding and Clicker Training

[TrishB]

When I was attending Parker's HCT test, the judge thanked us all for not brining up clicker training. "Clicker training has no place in herding." Agree or disagree?

She also said that "Herding is it's own reward, therefore the click is inconsequential. Like trying to train a killer whale NOT to eat a seal. Catching and eating the seal is its own reward. So herding and chasing the sheep is ITS own reward, and it's that reward that you have to work with." Thoughts? What about you people out there that have had actual herding experience? I'd love to hear from you.


*Please note that this is from memory, so it may not be word for word and it is also my take on what she said. But it was very clear when she said "Clicker training has no place in herding."

[spidey]

"Herding is it's own reward, therefore the click is inconsequential. Like trying to train a killer whale NOT to eat a seal. Catching and eating the seal is its own reward. So herding and chasing the sheep is ITS own reward, and it's that reward that you have to work with."

The above statement illustrates a lack of understanding of how clicker training (operant conditioning) works. Clicker training may or may not be useful for herding (a friend of mine who has titled two dogs in herding so far, both clicker trained, seems to feel it has a place in herding - however, she has also encountered a lot of herding people who do not understand how clicker training works and who also feel that it is not useful for herding training, until they see her dogs work and learn a bit more about it). First of all the statement that "the click is inconsequential" implies that this person feels that the click is the reward, rather than an event marker. The click is not the reward. Second, using environmental rewards (like being allowed to herd, or go and play with other dogs, or a killer whale being allowed to kill and eat a seal) is completely in tune with clicker training and is used all the time, and the only way that one can use environmental rewards is if the reward is itself intrinsically rewarding (rewards are only reinforcers if the dog finds them rewarding). A clicker-savvy dog learns very quickly that it has to do something to get the reward, regardless of what the reward is, which is exactly the same as a correction-trained dog learning that it has to do/not do something to avoid a correction.

It's fine to not want to use clicker training, it's even fine to not want to learn about how it works or even do the bare minimum of research about it. What's NOT fine (in my opinion) is to make a definitive statement like "clicker training has no place in herding" when it is obvious from other statements that you do not actually understand what clicker training is in the first place. It's extremely common for people to think they understand clicker training (i.e. operant conditioning) when they don't ("the click is the reward", "you always have to click", "you always have to feed a treat", "he won't care about the click when there's something more exciting to do", "he won't ever be truly obedient" etc), when what they're really talking about is simply using a clicker in their training (using a clicker and clicker training are not the same thing). Operant conditioning works on any creature with a nervous system, from fish to killer whales, and you can use it to train extremely complex tasks, including herding.

It's not the only way to train, it may not be the best way to train in any given venue (you may indeed get better results in some venues by training different ways, but "you'll likely get better results using something else" is very different from "it has no place here"), and people are absolutely entitled to choose whatever training method they feel works best for themeselves and their dogs. But going by your memory of what this judge said (which as you say, could be inaccurate), I'm of the opinion that she does not have an accurate understanding of what operant conditioning is and how it works (which as I've said, is extremely common, even among very experienced dog trainers), and as such, I feel it's pretty unreasonable of her to be making pronouncements about how useful it is with regard to herding (that would be like someone seeing a few people misuse a prong collar and therefore decide that all prong collars were useless - opinions, especially when one intends to spread those opinions as facts from a position of authority, should be based on accurate data and research). I'd be very interested in finding out what she thinks clicker training is, if she thinks that an intrinsically-rewarding behaviour like herding is incompatible with clicker training, especially since intrinsically-rewarding behaviours are successfully used all the time as reinforcers by those who clicker train.

[DNeff]

Disagree. I don't think the judge completely understands the logic behind using a clicker based on that statement. Clicker training is about marking the moment the dog is correct. The reward you choose to use depends on your preference. You could very well use the sheep as your reward. But that depends on your dog. Some dogs could care less about herding. Therefore allowing them to herd is not reinforcing. For other dogs it is. For a shy sheltie who isn't "in" to herding, clicking the dog for moving up or stopping, lets them know that behavior is what you wanted and then you follow up with a reinforcer that the dog enjoys like food.

I did some clicker training while herding and found it very effective. I clicked when Riven was moving/stopping/responding as he should be and let him continue to move the sheep. If he was incorrect he was stopped. Clicking just let him know the exact moment in time he was correct. If that was slowing up, stopping, turning back or responding to my cues, I could mark those instances very precisely and allow him to continue. This helped clarify exactly what I was happy with.

I also noticed that clicking tending to get his attention a bit more since he liked to get in to a "herding daze" as I call it, while he was working. IMO clicking gives you amazing precision in identifying the very thing the dog did which you want to call attention to.

I agree with Amanda that there is still allot of misunderstanding in the herding community about using a clicker. My instructor was very accepting and encouraged me to use the clicker to help my dog identify the finer points of what I was asking for.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX EGC OAC OJC OAJ NA TT CGC
Osa Mistico De Riven CGC
Esmonds Opinicus v Nordike

[frontierrots]

Absolutely disagree.

The click tells the dog what they did was right and allowig them to herd is the reinforcement just as the above two posts say.

There is a VERY prominant CANADIAN clicker trainer. Gosh her name escapes me now as all I have is her nickname in my head...) Sue something. She trains herding with clicker and she had a VERY driven dog that would lose it's mind when it saw sheep. Song was the dog's name. She used the clicker training to give this dog self control and allow it to herd as a reward.

There is indeed a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding about what clicker training is and isn't. This is being spread by the scoffers, the disbelievers and also (sadly) by people claiming to be clicker trainers who aren't

You really need to read info from legitimate sources and then make up your own mind if the method suits your personality or not

Having been a traditional method trainer for years before finding clicker, I won't go back. It is so much clearer for the dog, so incredibly clearer that I see no reason to go back

I'll see if I can find the link to Song's story and post it.

But basically my reply is that the herding person obviously does not know enough about real clicker training nor seen it applied correctly to be making such a broad condemnation

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

But basically my reply is that the herding person obviously does not know enough about real clicker training nor seen it applied correctly to be making such a broad condemnation

Fair enough! I appreciate the additional information. Her qualifications and achievments are extensive, so I have to give some weight to her comments as well. It just goes to show that many different methods can obtain the same, successful results!

[DNeff]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

Absolutely disagree.
There is a VERY prominant CANADIAN clicker trainer. Gosh her name escapes me now as all I have is her nickname in my head...) Sue something.

Sue Ailsby or Sue eh? as she sometimes call herself. The story is on the clicker solutions archive website.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX EGC OAC OJC OAJ NA TT CGC
Osa Mistico De Riven CGC
Esmonds Opinicus v Nordike

[Carol Burke]

Very interesting subject. I have to admit I have never been a fan of clicker training, but I have never spent any time learning about it either. I just started herding with Moe and opened this thread ready to agree that clicker training has no place in herding, guess I'll rethink that one.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Carol Burke

Very interesting subject. I have to admit I have never been a fan of clicker training, but I have never spent any time learning about it either. I just started herding with Moe and opened this thread ready to agree that clicker training has no place in herding, guess I'll rethink that one.

Being open minded enough to admit that you don't know enough about something to have made up your mind about it is the mark of a very reasonable person, good for you. There are indeed experienced clicker trainers who do not think it's very useful for herding work, just as there are experienced clicker trainers who DO think it's useful for herding.

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by spidey

Being open minded enough to admit that you don't know enough about something to have made up your mind about it is the mark of a very reasonable person, good for you. There are indeed experienced clicker trainers who do not think it's very useful for herding work, just as there are experienced clicker trainers who DO think it's useful for herding. I think the main issue here (from my standpoint, anyway) is someone making an absolute statement ("clicker training has no place in herding") from a position of authority (a herding judge with impressive credentials), seemingly without actually understanding what they're talking about when it comes to clicker training (as her statements about clicker training as remembered by Trish would seem to indicate - her misunderstandings are very common ones, and a lot of people base their opinions on similar misinformation - it's not that clicker training is all that complicated, it's that there are a lot of people who claim to understand it but don't) - impressive credentials as a herding judge do not mean you understand clicker training. Differing opinions are good, but they should be based on facts, not misinformation.

I knew it was going to have to go here - I wouldn't go around saying that she misunderstands it or is announcing misinformation. Her opinion is that it has no place in herding. She, as an experienced individual with her credentials is more than qualified to state her own findings and make her own statements. For you to assume that she doesn't understand it - well, I find it arrogant.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Since there are many ways to train and to train successfully - each opinion and approach IS correct. Her opinion is that it has no place - she is more than entitled to that opinion. Just as everyone else is here. But to assume and imply that she doesn't know what she's talking about or giving misinformation is an accusation that I think you should know the individual before you make. In her opinion, and her experience, she is correct. Just as others, in their opinions and their experience, is also correct.

It's fine to disagree - but don't make accusations or assumptions. It doesn't help your case. Your opinion is valid on it's own credentials without slamming others.

Everyone feels that their way of training is best as it works best for them. And that makes it accurate and correct for them.

[Judi W]

I can see how it might be used in teaching the drive, but not in the fetch. Handler on one side of the pasture, dog on the other side of the sheep, dust flying, hooves pounding............

In regards to using it to work a dog that has no drive, I can tell you that I have watched a dog that was strictly doing the herding as an obedience exercise and it was very obvious to all, including the judge. That was a case of the handler controlling the dog rather than the dog controlling the stock. Not the idea of herding at all.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by TrishB

I knew it was going to have to go here - I wouldn't go around saying that she misunderstands it or is announcing misinformation. Her opinion is that it has no place in herding. She, as an experienced individual with her credentials is more than qualified to state her own findings and make her own statements. For you to assume that she doesn't understand it - well, I find it arrogant.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Since there are many ways to train and to train successfully - each opinion and approach IS correct. Her opinion is that it has no place - she is more than entitled to that opinion. Just as everyone else is here. But to assume and imply that she doesn't know what she's talking about or giving misinformation is an accusation that I think you should know the individual before you make. In her opinion, and her experience, she is correct. Just as others, in their opinions and their experience, is also correct.

It's fine to disagree - but don't make accusations or assumptions. It doesn't help your case. Your opinion is valid on it's own credentials without slamming others.

Everyone feels that their way of training is best as it works best for them. And that makes it accurate and correct for them.

Having an opinion is great, but spreading that opinion as an absolute (i.e. "clicker has no place in herding"), from a position of authority, when it seems likely that you do not actually have enough accurate information to make your opinion an informed one, is irresponsible (in my opinion). I wasn't there, I'm going by what you say she said. On that understanding, your quotes of what she said imply very strongly that she does not understand clicker training, and as far as I'm concerned, that means her opinions thereof are uninformed (NOT her opinions about herding, her opinions about clicker and herding) - sure it's an assumption, but it's based on her echoing common misconceptions about clicker training, and some of the things you quote her as saying cannot be interpreted in any other way - for example, implying that something that is intrinsically rewarding is therefore incompatible with clicker training is demonstrably incorrect. I'm not slamming her, I'm stating that her having impressive credentials as a herding competitor and judge do not mean that she is qualified to make absolute statements about clicker training - the two things do not automatically go together. Opinions are not all equal, an opinion based on inaccurate or insufficient information is substantially less valid than one informed by accurate information. I have said more than once, everyone is indeed entitled to their own opinion about training methods, but I do have a problem with someone spreading a seemingly uninformed opinion as absolute fact from a position of authority.

[hcelsa]

OK...tried to stay out of this...I know how serious about using a clicker those that love them can get, so no offense is meant by this note. And while I may not have a ton of clicker experience I do have a lot of herding experience to speak from.

I'm familiar with the use of the clicker (just uncoordinated...a simple "yes" works much better for me as a CR, but I have used the clicker to teach tricks just so that I've tried it before I voice an opinion), BUT I don't see the benefit of using it in herding, unless you're working with a dog that isn't actually into herding or is so over the top around stock that they are being clicked for being calm (in that case I don't understand why you'd want to herd with your dog if it isn't actually fun for either of you).

I think using a clicker while actually herding at higher levels would be a moot point for multiple reasons...
1) proximity (you may not be very close to the dog)
2) convenience (one more thing to keep track of out there)
3) long term effectiveness (one of the nice things about herding is you can talk all you want...therefore verbal praise is a very effective tool that you can use during trials too...)
4) audability (don't know if I spelled that right...basically, can they hear it with all the other commotion that can be going on)

I'm sure there are more...and I'm sure those that believe in using clickers for everything are as strongly for using one as I am strongly against using one...

[DNeff]

Originally Posted by TrishB

"Herding is it's own reward, therefore the click is inconsequential. Like trying to train a killer whale NOT to eat a seal. Catching and eating the seal is its own reward. So herding and chasing the sheep is ITS own reward, and it's that reward that you have to work with."

This is the statement the portrays a lack of understanding in BASIC clicker theory. If a person makes a statement that is incorrect and a very basic concept of clicker training, it's a pretty fair assumption to conclude they do not have a good understanding of clicker training. I think it's fair to question a person's qualification in making a statement when they present the fundamental theory incorrectly and use that as their reason for saying a method is ineffective.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX EGC OAC OJC OAJ NA TT CGC
Osa Mistico De Riven CGC
Esmonds Opinicus v Nordike

[TrishB]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

OK...tried to stay out of this...I know how serious about using a clicker those that love them can get, so no offense is meant by this note. And while I may not have a ton of clicker experience I do have a lot of herding experience to speak from.

I'm familiar with the use of the clicker (just uncoordinated...a simple "yes" works much better for me as a CR, but I have used the clicker to teach tricks just so that I've tried it before I voice an opinion), BUT I don't see the benefit of using it in herding, unless you're working with a dog that isn't actually into herding or is so over the top around stock that they are being clicked for being calm (in that case I don't understand why you'd want to herd with your dog if it isn't actually fun for either of you).

I think using a clicker while actually herding at higher levels would be a moot point for multiple reasons...
1) proximity (you may not be very close to the dog)
2) convenience (one more thing to keep track of out there)
3) long term effectiveness (one of the nice things about herding is you can talk all you want...therefore verbal praise is a very effective tool that you can use during trials too...)
4) audability (don't know if I spelled that right...basically, can they hear it with all the other commotion that can be going on)

I'm sure there are more...and I'm sure those that believe in using clickers for everything are as strongly for using one as I am strongly against using one...

Thank you! Considering Elsa's name:

HC Elsa CDX,NA,NAJ,NAP,HXAsd,HTDIIIsd,ATDsd,OTDc,CGC,TT,VX

That says a lot. Theory is one - practice is quite another.

[Mick Trainer]

A clicker can be used any where. It marks behavior, why wouldn't it work to mark a good responce by the dog in herding? Ahh don't you love ignorance.