Off lead heeling

[diddybopper04]

Originally Posted by ACERSMOM

Diddybopper04, you are right I have asked her to HEEL when she is out of position, instead of my GET UP or GET BACK. It is just a bad habit on my part as she does know the other commands.

Remember, after you give a behavior a name (HEEL!), any time you name the behavior, you have marked whatever the dog is doing at that moment. As you are now learning, NEVER EVER say HEEL unless the dog is heeling JUST LIKE YOU WANT IT TO IN THE RING. EVER. I use "Let's Go" with young dogs for a LONG time before I EVER use the word heel. I also use the word PLACE to have the dog assume heel position. Heel means one thing, and one thing only, and that is we are moving with attention and style, the dog is in the correct place, and I have perfect attention. THIS is when I will start saying HEEL. And only then. STOP saying "heel" at ANY time when the dog is not in position.

Originally Posted by ACERSMOM

As far as correcting her in the manner you described she is too quick for me. I have used a tab on her but she darts just out of my reach.

Then when the dog leaves or darts away, USE A COMMAND. SIT. or DOWN. I then go to the dog and get it. I take it back to exactly where the problem started. I smile and look happy, but I take the dog back on it's tippy toes, and I mean very briskly. If she disobeys the sit or the down, a CTJ correction would be coming from me.

Originally Posted by ACERSMOM

Sharon, I understand the training method you use, but I think it is too late for her as she already knows what she can do when the leash is off.

Yes, I think you are dead on here. This is exactly why I would never trial any dog who did not understand off leash work. I have had a dog leave the field on me, it ain't no fun.

Training often takes a lot of work and intestinal fortitude on the part of the handler to work through these issues. Yours can be a particularly hard thing to work through, esp once the dog has learned the duck and dodge and now it's gonna be chase me games. Leave a very light line dragging on her, and when she leaves, tell her to down, or sit, and go get her. Leave the line long enough so that you can step on it if you need to. When you get to her, take her with your hands by whatever you can grab, and march her back to where you started on tippy toe. Remember not to charge her, or stalk up. Be calm and matter of fact. Do not use the collar to take hold of her, use parts of the dog. SMILE and talk nicey nice as you march her back quick step to exactly where the mistake happened. DO NOT say heel if she is not in heel position. Repeat as necessary.

Once you have to make this sort of correction to the dog, it's time to let the dog be successful. Get her attention, get a few steps of nice heeling, release and praise the dog, and work on something else. DON'T train for the mistake.

[EliDogInTraining]

I would have to disagree that one should only use the word heel as a movement command. Heel is a 'position' whether it is movement or stationary. If the dog is clear about what and where the 'correct' heel position is it won't make any difference to them whether you are moving or stationary.

[spoteet]

Originally Posted by EliDogInTraining

I would have to disagree that one should only use the word heel as a movement command. Heel is a 'position' whether it is movement or stationary. If the dog is clear about what and where the 'correct' heel position is it won't make any difference to them whether you are moving or stationary.

I agree with Keith on this. I teach Sajan that "heel" or "fus" is a position in relation to me whether we are moving or not. If he is not in that position and I want him to get there, how is he going to know to get there if I don't tell him to? Like when we are starting to work, when I am ready to start I tell him "fus" and he comes to my side and gets in position. Of course this only applies after he understands where that position is. I can be at any angle to Sajan and when I tell him "fus" he comes and gets in position. This way when we are heeling and I tell him "fus" he understands that while he is walking or running that he needs to be in a certain position in relation to me and looking at me. I also only use one command in heeling that puts him in position and looking at me instead of saying "fus" and then "watch" to get attention.

I used to train off leash heeling and I had many more problems in a trial than I do now. I got many compliments on Sajan's off leash heeling during our last BH attempt about how he was really focused and driving so much better than his on leash.

[Laura]

Moving briskly and having confidence in your dog to work for you helped me a little. That was one of my problems with Chance off lead she would wander so I lost all confidence in myself and Chance in the ring and it reflected in my walking. I became very uneasy and I would be looking back for her. I'm still having problems but it is attention problems, at times she could care less if she is near me (working on that).

[spoteet]

Originally Posted by Laura

Moving briskly and having confidence in your dog to work for you helped me a little. That was one of my problems with Chance off lead she would wander so I lost all confidence in myself and Chance in the ring and it reflected in my walking. I became very uneasy and I would be looking back for her. I'm still having problems but it is attention problems, at times she could care less if she is near me (working on that).

I agree with the brisk heeling pace too. I find myself heeling slower in a class situation to prevent running off and leaving everyone else with smaller dogs and it hurts Sajan. He sniffs more and wonders more becuase he is basically bored. He does much better if I maintain the brisk pace we train at when we are solo.

[diddybopper04]

Like someone told me long ago, whatever works.

My thinking, and my instructor's, who taught me this, is that the dog has to learn only one word, and that word means ONE thing. I do not want to tell my dog the word for HEELING in order for him to assume heel position. He does not have to wonder. Place means get in heel position. HEEL means we are about to move.

I also don't use the word stay if I am leaving a dog to have him do something else, such as on a recall. I want stay to mean ONE thing, and that is I am coming back to the dog.

These things work for me, but as said in the beginning, THANK GOD there are many different ways to teach and train dogs.

[spoteet]

Originally Posted by diddybopper04

Like someone told me long ago, whatever works.

My thinking, and my instructor's, who taught me this, is that the dog has to learn only one word, and that word means ONE thing. I do not want to tell my dog the word for HEELING in order for him to assume heel position. He does not have to wonder. Place means get in heel position. HEEL means we are about to move.

I also don't use the word stay if I am leaving a dog to have him do something else, such as on a recall. I want stay to mean ONE thing, and that is I am coming back to the dog.

These things work for me, but as said in the beginning, THANK GOD there are many different ways to teach and train dogs.

Yep there are many ways to skin this cat

With the method I use there is no command for the actual heeling motion. He knows how to walk/run and he knows when I move away from him using my left foot first, then he comes too. In heeling he gets one command and it is for position.

But like you said, there are as many different methods as there are dogs, so whatever works best for you and yours Just like the "stay" command issue, I never use that word regardless if I am doing a recall or a long down but it works for a lot of people

[hcelsa]

Hmmm...to throw another potential "tool" into the toolbox, I train almost entirely off-leash (I think for many handlers and dogs the leash becomes a crutch). I do put a leash on the dogs when I'm in public places where they are required, but the end is tucked into my back pocket or tied around my belt. I want my hands free to help my dogs (and to provide rewards either food, toys, head rubs, a tap on the nose to remind them to focus, a rub under the chin to re-inforce attention etc). I also make a point to only go forward IF I have the attention I want. I think many folks make the mistake of heeling around in patterns, etc with mediocre attention, then wonder why their dog isn't focused as well as they liked (perfect practice=good performance...mediocre practice=poor performance).

First, they need to have excellent stationary attention (for me that means no matter how close another dog is, where the sheep are, who's petting them etc, they do NOT take their eyes off me when sitting in heel position--I've seen Arnie's eyes roll with a bitch in season sitting next to him, but his head doesn't move), because how can they have good focus when moving if they can't focus when nothing else is going on.

Then move forward in tiny increments, slowly building the amount of time you want that focus for. If your dog is loosing focus its your job to back up to an amount of time/level of distraction where he can be perfect. I'd go back to the basics, and concentrate on stationary attention and attention for 2-4 steps in these new situations...once you have that increase the expectation (but don't forget to do some of the small pieces and reward as well). Don't get trapped into thinking you need to practice the whole big picture every time!

An excellent book on competitive obedience (definitely worth owning IMHO) is Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act by Judy Byron & Adele York (available through Sit-Stay and Dogwise ).

Hope this gives you more to think about!

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by diddybopper04

These things work for me, but as said in the beginning, THANK GOD there are many different ways to teach and train dogs.

Yes it is a good thing...

But I don't think you give dog's brains enough credit. When taught completely commands can mean a host of behaviors that allresult in the same thing

Heel means to be at my left side looking at me with her nose next to my thigh (I'm short). In practical terms this also means to finish from a front, or to come to a straight sit beside me from anywhere, and to move next to me looking (NOT cranked head heeling but still looking ) at me with her nose next to my thigh

Stay means to stay exactly where you are until I give you another command

But if you want your commands to mean simple, single behaviors that's fine too

[Judi W]

For me heel is a position, the one that described in the regs, and it applies whether static or in motion.

[BostonRott]

Judi, that is how I taught Froli to heel: "Fuss is this place beside me, looking at me. Now, if stupid me happens to wander off, you do what you can to maintain this place/position." I also taught the recall this way: "hier is a place in front of me, looking up at me. If you happen to be way out there when I say it, you then come to this position." And I did the same for the retrieve "Brings means sitting in front of me with a dumbell. Occaisionally I have blonde moments and toss it over there, you must then fix my mistake." This made a lot of sense to me, and it seemed to make sense to her also.