How to train a reliable long sit/down

[spoteet]

I'm curious which method people here use to train the long sit/down. I personally no longer use the 2nd command "stay" since it's not allowed in schutzhund. I didn't see a need for it and wanted to train one way for both schutzhund and AKC. Since anything allowed in schutzhund is allowed in AKC, I went that route. I used to train using "stay" and never had any problems but I know people who believe using stay for 3 different positions, sit/stand/down, creates confusion in the dog and results in laying down during a sit etc.

So, who uses what to train a reliable long sit/down and why???

Thanks!

[Patty1231]

I have always used the "stay" with sit, stand, and down - it's the method our trainer uses. I've never had a problem with it - I look at it as "stay" in the current position you are in after the initial sit, stand, down commands were given. Rocco's always been solid in these exercises. He trains with everyone else in Open and Utility even though we're competing in Novice and his 3 min. sits and 5 min downs have always been solid.

[dmoniz]

I'll start by saying I am not in any sort of competition. I do not use the word stay in any of my training. When I give a command they are expected to follow that command until given another command or a release. I do use stay, but that is for when the dogs are alread sitting or down somewhere and I want them to stay there.

[Judi W]

I've used both and did not find the dog was confused by whether there was a stay involved or not.

Since AKC does allow the extra "stay" command, it is sometimes wise to use it because it is a legal reinforcer. It should be noted that on the sport field, a dog can still pass even if the handler uses a second primary command and while it appears superior that no stay command is used, two fetch commands are the norm for the retrieve over the jump, Neither field is superior, they are just somewhat different. Although the stay is allowed AKC is less forgiving of extra commands than ScH. Once you've given the command to start an exercise that's it.

In my opinion whichever field you are on, if something is legal and might make a difference, use handler sense as to whether to use it or not.

[spoteet]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I've used both and did not find the dog was confused by whether there was a stay involved or not.

Since AKC does allow the extra "stay" command, it is sometimes wise to use it because it is a legal reinforcer. It should be noted that on the sport field, a dog can still pass even if the handler uses a second primary command and while it appears superior that no stay command is used, two fetch commands are the norm for the retrieve over the jump, Neither field is superior, they are just somewhat different. Although the stay is allowed AKC is less forgiving of extra commands than ScH. Once you've given the command to start an exercise that's it.

In my opinion whichever field you are on, if something is legal and might make a difference, use handler sense as to whether to use it or not.

I chose to eliminate the stay command so I wouldn't mess up in schutzhund and tell him stay out of habit. Why loose points when it can easily be avoided? In AKC when everyone else is telling their dog "stay" I sometimes say "sit/down" again to reinforce that command. I only do this if I feel he may be tempted to break for some reason. Basically the same thing just doesn't get me in trouble in the schutzhund field.

I agree that neither field is superior to the other. I prefer to train one way for both fields to prevent handler error. Unfortuntately, I can't do that for the about turn

[Judi W]

And you are right, because if you do some of the things that are permitted on the ScH field in an AKC ring, you will be shown the gate. If you are going to form handler habits best to do it where things are most universal.

[fbkeays]

A while ago I didn't always get after my dogs if they "broke" a sit or down command because I didn't follow up with stay. The rules are now different. Sit means sit and down means down and if they deviate, they get an angry owner in their face letting them know they did bad. I still give the stay command, especially in the ring, because I can, but sit is sit and down is down.
I do agree that you should be consistant in your training and find the common ground between venues and use that. Nothing is worse to NQ because the handler screwed up on the allowable commands.
I am still trying to train a reliable sit and down stay in the presence of bitches. He can do it in the presence of racing sheep, but not with a stationary bitch next to him.

[spoteet]

Originally Posted by Judi W

And you are right, because if you do some of the things that are permitted on the ScH field in an AKC ring, you will be shown the gate. If you are going to form handler habits best to do it where things are most universal.

Ok now I am curious The different about turn is the only thing I can think of that I do different in the schutzhund field versus AKC. I know some schutzhund dogs are trained to heel wrapped around their handlers leg, which is a no-no for AKC but I don't train that way, personally hate the look and don't like a dog wrapped around my leg while trying to walk Can you give me some examples, please?

[Miabella]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in AKC you can say "heel" again after a halt, but I believe you can't in Schutzhund?

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by spoteet

I know some schutzhund dogs are trained to heel wrapped around their handlers leg, which is a no-no for AKC but I don't train that way, personally hate the look and don't like a dog wrapped around my leg while trying to walk

This is not correct in Sch. either. Heel position is heel position. I don't think anyone purposely trains their dog for this position, but I think it's mostly a factor of highly driven dogs (a bit of forging) and the reward (tug usually) coming out of the right hand.

Other Differences: Long down correct position is to remain in sphinx position (no rolling onto hip). I don't think points are always taken away for a hip roll (not at club level anyway).

Motion exercises (stand is done while moving and no hand signal allowed).

Send out (like in Utility): In Sch dog is sent out longer distance and must down (not sit)

Jumps: Much higher in Sch (always 1 meter or 39")

About Turn: 2 options for about turn (both different than AKC about-turn)

Pattern: Always the same in Sch (but always LONGER distance than AKC)

Long Down while distraction: Other dog doing OB while one dog in long down

[Judi W]

I love the left about by the way and use it often to sharpen things up.

The main thing I think of is the multiple commands on the fetch. In AKC you give your command and cannot say another word until the dog is sitting in front with the dumbell. In ScH you give "hup" and then your fetch command after the dog has jumped. (two commands for one exercise). The other thing is that your dog can still receive a passing score if it goes around the jump or even if it received multiple commands on the flat or other places. . It costs big points but the dog can still pass. ScH uses single command for the heel, yes, and no names. AKC allows names but you'd better not pause between name and command word or it is considered a double command and a big zero.

[spoteet]

Thanks Laurie but I wasn't asking about the different exercises. I was asking about different handler cues like not saying stay after putting the dog in a down. I was curious about what Judi was referring to that would get you thrown out of an AKC ring.

I DO know several schutzhund trainers that want their dog to wrap their legs and I have encountered judges that like it becuase they call it drive. I have also encountered judges that are starting to lean toward the AKC way, meaning no touching and will count off for wrapping.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by spoteet

Thanks Laurie but I wasn't asking about the different exercises. I was asking about different handler cues like not saying stay after putting the dog in a down. I was curious about what Judi was referring to that would get you thrown out of an AKC ring.

Ooops, only read your comment and not the quote you were referring to...

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I love the left about by the way and use it often to sharpen things up.

I don't use it for the routine, but I've used it in training. I have a dog who wants to forge a tad (making left turns a bit of a pain, and that's something that has to be dealt with). I find that the left about turn is a great tool for keeping the dogs on the toes (since it's difficult to do if the dog is forging). I hope to add more of it into our training once I tune-up some of the other heeling issues...

So far I only know of one handler who uses the left-about for the OB routine.

[Judi W]

If you're talking about AKC, no you can't use it but it is a great training device. The oh too funny though is when I am trying to teach it to a class. Feet and dogs all over the place for a few minutes and then it straightens out. Anything that can add a bit of snap and pizzaz to heeling training is always welcomed by handler and dog.