On leash / Off leash attention issue

[Silvermarten]

Ok , Henry the hyperweiler has been learning well in school but somehow I've managed to reinforce an innappropriate (or undesirable ) behaviour .
When off leash , he's 96% focused on me , has an amazing recall etc . I'm very happy with this as he is still young . (We've got years of training to go )
BUT when on leash he pretty much gets distracted at the drop of a hat . I think that somewhere in his training he's learn't to use the leash as a crutch .
It's almost as though he's ignoring me . Everything else is more intresting . No he's not pulling , but he's definately not looking at me . I don't expect a heel head up look , just an attention to me . He still responds to commands but slower and casually .
We are still doing clicker training . I know there are mixed thoughts on that . That's fine . I'm here with an open mind .
I'm intrested in thoughts on training to correct this "leash crutch" issue I've managed to creat

[BostonRott]

Which did you train first, on or off leash? How have you trained it? How did you transition between the two?

[Patty1231]

I just had a similar problem at our first real OB trial - got some good advice here and Rocco's doing MUCH better.

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37793

[Mavides]

Are you training with a loose lead? If there is any tension at all on the lead, you're right...he doesn't have to pay attention to you because he can FEEL right where you are. The way that I train (okay, the way I TRY to train...it's certainly an ongoing process!) is that the leash is completely loose unless I'm giving a correction and then it's loose again. If you're only doing clicker and no corrections, I would imagine the leash should ALWAYS be loose. Just a thought of course...I could be wrong as it's always hard to tell what's going on without actually seeing the situation.

[Judi W]

This is not an uncommon problem with smart dogs. They don't watch you when they are on-lead because they don't have to! The leash telegraphs your every movement, even if you have it loose. Just the swing of the leather and clip give messages.

Get a piece of cord, about 24 inches long. (cord - not rope). Tie a small loop in each end. Run the cord through the live collar and put your finger through the loops. A light piece of cord is not going to telegraph like the weight of a lead and clip.

You can correct adequately with this (trust me on that one) and you can easily transfer to off lead by dropping one end of the string and letting it pull through the collar ring.

[TrishB]

Judi's string idea is a good one.

You can also try that when you have the leash in your right hand, make sure there is a nice loop so it's loose. Now hook your right thumb through your belt loop of your pants.

Chances are that when you have him on leash, instead of demanding eye contact, talking, shifting your body language - you're depending too much on the leash. Not paying attention, you check the leash. You've developed your leash into your crutch. Therefore, when he's not paying attention to you on leash, he knows you don't mean it unless he's getting a correction with the leash. I know it makes sense to us that he's getting the correction because he's not paying attention. But to him - he thinks it's because you weren't serious the other times and THIS time you mean it.

With your thumb through your belt loop, you won't be able to use your hands to get your dog to heel. Therefore, you'll depend on everything else (like you do in off leash heeling) instead.

[Storm]

Go back to spending a few sessions just with the dog driving you backwards etc. no formality, for say food. By getting this driving "instinct" and association with the field it will become more so a behavior from the dog. Irrespective of the equipment on the dog this behavior should continue provided that there is no negative assoiciation with it I.E. corrections. I have found that especially with rotties that the ability to really drive and focus comes very "late". Don't ask for this to early as then the dog will shut down. People think that they tend to be a "little" head strong in that they have their own agenda, but this is more so the lack of ability to develop desire within the foundation stages! And this is an area where the motivation must be lifted and not correction applied to try and shape the desired response. Correction in this instance causes conflict and the dog does not see it as a means to relieve pressure as many times there is no correct behavior in place for the dog to revert to as an answer for the correction. For really attentive focused heel work with a rottie I would manipulate the food drive to the fullest extent. They normally are food driven and in saying so do multiple short sessions, very successful and imprint this food drive association with a long term goal. I have seen soooooooooooooo many rotties doing terrible heel work due to incorrect obedience associations. For really good work the dog must initiate the behaviors, obviously once you have imprinted the associations and then they must be reinforced making them stronger and stronger to a point where one can say right, now I have the desire now I can shape behaviors revolving around the obedience requirements. IMO the biggest mistake people make is ask for work, positions etc. when fundamentally there is no desire!

[Silvermarten]

!!! WOW !!!
I leave a question , go to work , and come home to find all these wonderful training tips & techniques .
THANKYOU all for the excellent advice .
I'm very excited to start working through this issue .

BostonRott wrote

Which did you train first, on or off leash? How have you trained it? How did you transition between the two?

....on leash 1st . Clicker training so click & treat for correct position . Though looking back I can see I've not be as strict about position as I really should have . I know I've enabled this incorrect behaviour so appreciate everyones advise on reshaping his behaviour . The off leash is 1st in class , leash on , then dragging leash , then on a tab . Goal is not to grab leash but be more 'exciting' & 'rewarding' to your dog than other class people and dogs . This is especially hard with Mr Hyperweiler who thinks the whole world was created for him to play with Though with lots of running around (on my part) , toys and treats he's gotten to the point that he'll keep walking with me and even looking at me dispite dogs playing in front of him or even jumping on him . We've been working out of class , in house , then yard , then empty park , then park with people/dogs in the distance . Slowly working up to greater distactions .

TrishB wrote

Chances are that when you have him on leash, instead of demanding eye contact, talking, shifting your body language - you're depending too much on the leash. Not paying attention, you check the leash. You've developed your leash into your crutch. Therefore, when he's not paying attention to you on leash, he knows you don't mean it unless he's getting a correction with the leash. I know it makes sense to us that he's getting the correction because he's not paying attention. But to him - he thinks it's because you weren't serious the other times and THIS time you mean it.

..... Yes , you're right . I've created this issue by my inconsistancy . I'm going to shape up and in turn so will Henry

Judi W wrote

This is not an uncommon problem with smart dogs. They don't watch you when they are on-lead because they don't have to!The leash telegraphs your every movement, even if you have it loose. Just the swing of the leather and clip give messages.

Makes perfect sense . They are such smart dogs . Love the cord tip . Are you using a cotton cord ?

Storm wrote

Go back to spending a few sessions just with the dog driving you backwards etc.

Could you elaborate on this ? I've not heard of a reference to this before

Storm wrote

I have found that especially with rotties that the ability to really drive and focus comes very "late".

Thanks for the insight . I'm looking forward to "late"

Thankyou all again .

[Judi W]

nylon cord. Cotton will break, nylon will not. Don't forget to burn the ends so it doesn't unravel.