Shock collar??

[airwalk]

ok guys, my one year old rottie has dog aggression (big time). I contacted a trainer and we started home training last week. I prefer a group class, but he can't be around dogs so the trainer thinks we need to do six sessions of home training before the group obedience. Anyway were now working on obedience which he's great at, no problem there. We're gunna work with his dog aggression in 2wks and the trainer said that he might use "remote shock collar" if he doesn't listen to commands! I just need some input on this, is it a good idea? I mean I think his aggression is comming from fear since he hasn't been around dogs. I've socialized him with people, but I forgot about dogs!! Should't we try to introduce him to some dogs before using the "shock collar"? I introduced him to 2 of our friends' dogs and he did great with them after 10 minutes of barking that is...but he's still very aggressive towards strange dogs..So is "shock collar" a good idea?

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by airwalk

ok guys, my one year old rottie has dog aggression (big time). I contacted a trainer and we started home training last week. I prefer a group class, but he can't be around dogs so the trainer thinks we need to do six sessions of home training before the group obedience. Anyway were now working on obedience which he's great at, no problem there. We're gunna work with his dog aggression in 2wks and the trainer said that he might use "remote shock collar" if he doesn't listen to commands! I just need some input on this, is it a good idea? I mean I think his aggression is comming from fear since he hasn't been around dogs. I've socialized him with people, but I forgot about dogs!! Should't we try to introduce him to some dogs before using the "shock collar"? I introduced him to 2 of our friends' dogs and he did great with them after 10 minutes of barking that is...but he's still very aggressive towards strange dogs..So is "shock collar" a good idea?

I personally would not use a shock collar on the dog right away.

Part of the problem, is probably leadership issues with you. Every time you see another dog, you tighten up on the leash, which tells your dog you are afraid---he doesn't understand that you are afraid of what damage he might do, he only understands that you are afraid, so he "protects" you.

What collar are you currently using for training?

I would also recommend personally using a boaters air horn for the barking, and then treating him when he sees other dogs.

Recently had a great dane, who at 7 months weighed 120lbs....barked constantly at other dogs---not only did he receive leash corrections---BUT NOT FOR BARKING--for not listening to his handler when his handler said "HEEL" and took off in the opposite direction, but he got the blast with the air horn(we also used a super soaker water gun). Then when he relaxed and was calmj---about 50 ft away from the other dogs, he was rewarded with food. We gradually moved him closer to the dogs, rewarding him for the good, correcting him by taking him away, far far away, for the bad.

There is nothing wrong with e-collars. Wonderful tools. Altho, I am not overly fond of the use of them as a NEGATIVE Reinforcer. I don't think all dogs need that. And there are some trainers who train that way.(Push the button until the dog does the desired behavior, then the shock/pulse goes away when the dog does the behavior) Again, nothing wrong with this method of training---it works, just not, in my unhumble opinion on every dog.

If the trainer is only using it as a correction, then I would say *MAYBE* that it would be ok.

However, since I have never met the trainer, seen the dog, or so forth, it is really hard to give advice.

Later,
Karla Clinch
Certified Dog Trainer

[Judi W]

I wouldn't attempt an answer without seeing and some hands on the dog. I will say that the instructor you are going to be working with is correct, first you need to really sharpen up the obedience to a high level. If that is not in good shape there is no way the dog is going to listen to you when it is becoming excited.

[Big Dawg]

I agree completely with kclinch. I think it probably stems from leadership issues. Does he feel as if he is in command and therefore needs to protect you from danger? Work the issue like kclinch suggested until he is comfortable that you are in control and you will protect him.

Shock collars/prong collars etc. - BAD,BAD,BAD,BAD ( just making sure you do not misunderstand my opinion! ) I say this all too often ..rottweilers are extremely intelligent dogs. TRAINING,TRAINING,TRAINING ..show them what is expected of them and they will go out of their way to PLEASE you ..or you can take the LAZY way out and condition a response out of fear or punishment.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I wouldn't attempt an answer without seeing and some hands on the dog. I will say that the instructor you are going to be working with is correct, first you need to really sharpen up the obedience to a high level. If that is not in good shape there is no way the dog is going to listen to you when it is becoming excited.

I would agree with Judi here and say that the person who has seen the dog and is currently working with you is the one who would know best. The fact he is teaching solid Obedience first shows that he is condidtioning the desired behavior first before he adds the collar which is the correct path to take.

Mick.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by Big Dawg

I think it probably stems from leadership issues. Does he feel as if he is in command and therefore needs to protect you from danger?

I cannot for one second agree with this. Firstly whilst the dog clearly feels that he can control his own behavior and needs obedience this need not have anything to do with leadership and certainly nothing to do with protecting the owner. The dog most likely does feel threatened (the stimulus for defencive aggression) and the behavior is based in self preservation not in some make believe idea that the dog has some natural desire to protect it's owner. Teaching sound obedience is always the first step to altering behavior and curing dog aggression as the dog must first understand the behavior that is required of it, but this has little to do with leadership and more to do with teaching successful behavior.

Originally Posted by BigDawg

Shock collars/prong collars etc. - BAD,BAD,BAD,BAD ( just making sure you do not misunderstand my opinion! ) I say this all too often ..rottweilers are extremely intelligent dogs. TRAINING,TRAINING,TRAINING ..show them what is expected of them and they will go out of their way to PLEASE you ..or you can take the LAZY way out and condition a response out of fear or punishment.

Ok so you don't like compulsion and that is you right but to use emotive terms like fear and punishment and call them lazy is to show ignorance towards them. Compulsion has been a form of sound learning in animals and humans as long as they have been on the planet. It is as much apart of the learning process as +ve re-enforcement. And whilst you may feel that the dog will do what you want becuase they seek to please you often this is not the case and no amount of positive re-enforcement will cure it. I have lost count of the number fo dogs I have had to cure with problems similar to this that have only gotten worse using motivation only. These same dogs often owe their lives to the very equipment that you have labled BAD, BAD, BAD. Many dogs benefit everyday from these pieces of equipment and go on to live very happy, healthy lives because of them, suffering no negative side effects. Just as many positive results can come about from motivational training techniques so can the same come about by adding compulsion to the training technique.

Mick.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by kclinch

.

If the trainer is only using it as a correction, then I would say *MAYBE* that it would be ok.


Later,
Karla Clinch
Certified Dog Trainer

i take it you have never seen a dog aggressive dog pumped up and pushed over the edge by getting e collar corrections(i seen a dog killed on a training field this way) while i have nothing against e collars and i use them it is never acceptable to use them as a correction againast any kind of aggressive behavior

[airwalk]

Thank you guys for your responses! Well he listens to commands at home and outside, BUT when he's around dogs he goes deaf But it could be a leadership issue because he was much better with the trainer during his evaluation when other dogs were around than he's ever been with me...oh and one more thing, the trainer suggested using chocking leash which I never used before, I think that's probably a good idea....But for some reason I still think socialization is the problem to me he has fear aggression..., I just don't know if its good to give shock to my dog every now and then. I guess I'll just have to wait and see(hopefully he won't die)

[Judi W]

He will probably never learn to love or even like other dogs. That is not necessary. What is necessary is that he learn to follow your instructions and that comes with training. "Leadership" isn't something that just happens. It results from work and training and by that I mean formal training. The fact that a dog listens pretty well when it doesn't have something else it wants to do, is not trained. So, much hard work ahead but it is something that can be accomplished.

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by lblax

i take it you have never seen a dog aggressive dog pumped up and pushed over the edge by getting e collar corrections(i seen a dog killed on a training field this way) while i have nothing against e collars and i use them it is never acceptable to use them as a correction againast any kind of aggressive behavior

Larry,

As a professional dog trainer who has trained literally thousands of dogs, and worked with the Department of Defense doing evaluations/training/assistance in establishing their assistance dog training program, I have seen what you describe.

However, if you read my post carefully, you will note, I am not correcting the dog for aggression, I am correcting him for disobeying a command, such as heel or sit.

Dogs aren't stupid, and learn very quickly.

The fact that this owner says that the trainer has respect from the dog and handles the dog better tells me alot, as well.

I have a great leadship handout that I would be happy to post to the forum, if anyone is interested????

Karla Clinch
Certified Dog Trainer

[LikeToRun]

Originally Posted by kclinch

I have a great leadship handout that I would be happy to post to the forum, if anyone is interested????

Of course! I would appreciate a threat on leadership. Probably would be good for all us inexperienced rott-heads!

Cheers!

[Big Dawg]

Mick, I agree with what you said ..I have always been a loud voice for training and obediance. About my point of view on shock collars ..that's just it - only my opinion. I do in fact agree with them where undrground fencing is concerned. I agree that these tools can reach the desired end result ..but never view something as fact just because it is popularly accepted as such. "Compulsion has been a form of sound learning in animals and humans as long as they have been on the planet." Not so long ago everyone knew that the Earth was flat. Not so long ago everyone knew that the Earth was the centre of the universe. What we do know is that animals we thought were conditioned can snap ..circus elephants, tigers. I know I am overly exaggerating my point, but for someone new to the game, it is good to hear all sides of an argument (even far left or right) in order to make an informed decision for themselves. I am not saying that there is any 'right way'. There are always advancements being made in every field and understanding dogs is no exception.

[Judi W]

Actually, I got the very strong impression that you were saying there was a "right way".

Much depends upon the issue to be resolved and the goals. For a stay-at-home family pet, with small if any issues it might be one thing, for those with larger goals for their dog or more serious issues that must be resolved to keep the dog in its home and off of death row, it can certainly be something else. Sensibility towards the dog is important, but solving aggression issues is on the side of the dog and that should not be discounted. Regardless of the love, dogs often choose to please themselves in such a fashion that it is dangerous and mother nature often has a much stronger punishment than a pinch, choke or e collar administered by an owner.

Not knowing your level of experience or why you would recommend an electronic fence, I will say that the underground fencing and shock collar are never recommended for a high drive and high pain threshhold dog such as most Rottweilers are. They will blow through that fence in a heartbeat given the stimulus of something they want to go after. They simply won't come back in. The fencing also does nothing to protect either the dog or the trespasser, animal or human who might enter the unsecured area.

[RottieGirl86]

"high pain threshhold dog" amen Judy W.

These dogs can go at a flat RUN and hit a wall and keep going without missing a beat - even if plaster is coming off the wall!

Work with the trainer in regards to the e collar, etc. But overall , it (e collar) won't be a long term solution for any rott owner. IMHO, the rott is just has not been stimulated to the degree for the brief pain (accident waiting to happen).

best of luck & keep us posted.

[airwalk]

Karla please post your leadership handout, btw you give great advice!