What Training Your Dog is All About Or The Goal of All Dog Training

[kclinch]

As I was reading through some of the posts on this list, forum,etc..I realized that many people do not understand what the goals of training your dog should be.

Now, before I get too far into that, let me give you all a brief resume of who I am.

My name is Karla, and I am a professional dog trainer---meaning I earn my living exclusively from training dogs---it is not a hobby, but rather how I pay my bills. I have a bachelors degree in Psychology and in Social Work. I am planning to return to school in the fall to aquire my master's degree in Psychology. I am certified from Purdue University School of Vet Medicine as a behavioral Technician. I am a graduate of National K-9 School of Dog Trainers. I am certified by Auburn Univeristy School of Vet Medicine. I have worked as a vet tech. I have been training dogs full time since 1989, before that I was a professional horse trainer. I got my first paying dog training client when I was 14, horse when I was 11. I have trained thousands of dogs and their owners, worked as a consultant for the Department of Defense's Assistance dogs for disabled Veterans program, and throroughly love dogs.
Ok, that being said, I have been into Rottie since 1982, when I met my first one. I am currently owned by one rottie, an aussie, a weimeramer, 2 colllies(actually foster dogs) and a cat. The Rottie, was from a breeding I did 18months ago, all the others are rescue animals. I take dogs from the shelter on a regular basis, train them and place them in appropriate homes(these are dogs from a kill facility, who would otherwise be euthanized)

Now, on to the goals of training your dog.

I believe, that regardless of the tool that you use to train your dog, whether it is a prong collar, an e-collar, a head halter, or whatever, your eventual goal should be that you are able to walk your dog down the street in nothing more than a buckle collar or harness and a leash, and have your dog sitting politely at your side, or standing politely at your side, regardless of the distraction.

I believe that your dog should never go out an open door without permission, whether he sees you or not. Whether he has a collar on or not.

Now that all being said----I start the majority of my training clients out on a prong collar---however, within 3 sessions, they are generally(not every time, as that is contingent on the the owners willingness to practice and praise and correct their dog properly) back into a buckle collar, and we are in the proofing stage of training.

I am not a huge proponent of head halters, for several reasons: 1) My dogs are not horses, so the thought process of it being like a horse halter is a fallicy---btw, I don't train horses in halters, I put a bit in their mouth 2) Most of the time, head halters are used as management tools not training tools 3) Dogs don't react well to head halters--put a bandaid over your nose and see how irritating it is---it has that same affect on your dog 4) Head halters can do severe injury to a dog's neck if not properly used.

Now, I do, like any other tool, occassionally use them.

So, again, the goal of all dog training?

IS that you are able to control your dog verbally. Without yelling(dogs aren't deaf, and if they are deaf, yelling doesn't do any good anyway)

Later,
Karla Clinch
Certified Dog Trainer

[LikeToRun]

Wow, Karla, quite an introduction! Welcome!

I look forward to seeing your expert opinion in the days and weeks to come. I'm certain that we can all benefit from your point of view.

Cheers,

Trevor

[kclinch]

Thanks for the welcome, Trevor. I look forward to being on the forum!

Karla

[Patty1231]

Welcome, Karla! Another educated opinon is always welcome, in my opinion. Your experience should help us all - but can you teach the "don't yell at your dog" thing, 'cause sometimes that's REALLY hard!! - they sure ACT deaf sometimes!

[kclinch]

Originally Posted by Patty1231

Welcome, Karla! Another educated opinon is always welcome, in my opinion. Your experience should help us all - but can you teach the "don't yell at your dog" thing, 'cause sometimes that's REALLY hard!! - they sure ACT deaf sometimes!

Don't I know it!

My other favorite thing to harp on is: DON'T REPEAT YOUR COMMANDS!!!!

If you say, Sit, Sit, Sit, Sit, Sit, then the dog learns to do it only when you say it five times.

Case in point:

I was teaching a group class when I lived up in Indiana, many many years ago.

It was the third week of class. We were teaching the "Down" command.

I had a lady who asked if she could bring her dog to class to proof it. Dog had one leg of it's CD, and she had a trial coming up in about 4 weeks. It scored in the high 180's on it's first leg.
"Sure" I said.

She comes to class, with a beautiful Covy Tucker Hill German Shepherd. Nice dog, wonderful temperment. She is working her dog a bit behind the rest of class.

I tell the class, after demo'ing the down, to down their dogs.

I hear her in the background "Rover, Down." dog doesn't down. Again, "Rover Down" this time in a slightly louder voice. Dog still refuses. "DAMMIT DOWN" She shouts....dog lies down....I smile....ask if I can borrow her dog....

She hands me her dog, I walk him out to the center of class, and in a stern, slightly elevated voice say "DAMMIT" and sure enough, the dog lies down....

He had figured out, when she got really pissed and said dammit that a correction was on the way!

Class laughed, she worked her dog, and ended up scoring a 194 on the next leg of his CD.

Later,
Karla Clinch
Certified Dog Trainer

[fbkeays]

Originally Posted by kclinch

He had figured out, when she got really pissed and said dammit that a correction was on the way!

Class laughed, she worked her dog, and ended up scoring a 194 on the next leg of his CD.

So, in the trial, did she use "damit" as the command?

[fbkeays]

Where I do herding, there is a sign that says, "$5 fine for yelling at your dog". Things got a lot quieter after that sign went up.

[LikeToRun]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

Where I do herding, there is a sign that says, "$5 fine for yelling at your dog". Things got a lot quieter after that sign went up.

That is awesome!!! We should print up a gross of them!

[moondog]

Once I have my dog's attention, I've always found that she listens best when I whisper to her. She "reaches out" to me with her eye and really listens to what I'm saying.

[rms78645]

They become "mommy" deaf too then?

[mymeekrotti]

Great thread. So far wer'e doing good on these things, but the don't repeat your commands thing is sometimes hard. (Its the whole deaf thing you know?) What kind of correction do you give if they don't listen? Iv'e heard a lot of opinions on this and am curious what all of you do.

[Judi W]

You mean is that you have heard that there is a difference between not listening and not obeying? What might that be? The only reason there might be a different correction is if there is a difference between the two.

Quite truthfully, it means that you have not yet taught the dog that responding to the command is not optional. The not-optional part of the training comes after you have taught what the command means. Much depends upon the stage of training you are at. Remember the part of the talk from your instructor that says do not give a command unless you are in a position to see it is followed. Skipping that step is what ends up with repeats of the command words and actually teaches the dog that you do not mean what you say. Never lie to your dog. Use informal language if you are not in a position to see that a formal word is going to be followed. Set your foundation at the beginning and all will be much easier as you progress will be much easier and your dog will learn to trust that your verbals are meaningful.

[mymeekrotti]

Originally Posted by Judi W

You mean is that you have heard that there is a difference between not listening and not obeying? What might that be? The only reason there might be a different correction is if there is a difference between the two.

Thanks for the quick response Judi! Your insight is always welcome.
I think I wasn't clear enough in what I was asking. There is no option-she doesn't do it the first time-she is made to do it. What I was asking is for instance, you say down she doesn't down, then some people say push on her shoulders, some say give a leash correction by pulling the leash down. I usually get right up to her where she can't ignore me and point to the ground, then wait silently till she downs. This works for us, she is very responsive to my body language, and if I put on a stern face, she will do it. I can use that method of frowning at her and waiting for her to do the command with a lot of things, but sometimes she is slow to do it, even if she does in the end. Should I be more concerned about making her respond quicker by giving her a more physical correction? I'm wondering is what I'm doing a correction? Or is it just a sustitute way of reapeating my command? Is one of the more physical corrections better? If she has a leash on then I give the leash correction, if she doesn't I have in the past done the push on the shoulders thing, but I don't like to.
My question is more WHAT do you do for a correction?

[Judi W]

Well, I think you need to back up in the training and start over. Think about how you taught the down. Does she really "know" what it means, or does she think it means the entire process you just described? I suspect it is the latter. It actually means fast quick belly in the dirt. I start with what I call "puppy pushups" which are bam - hit the dirt, with instant release whether from a stand, sit, walking or trotting or running. I start with it from a stand. Dogs actually do learn what we teach them, quite often surprising their owners who think they are learning what they intend to teach them instead. This becomes most obvious in the down when it turns out the dog believes the command cannot be followed unless it is sitting first and means sit and then go to the ground as that is what they have been taught. I have no problem teaching initially with the drop signal and verbal as that signal seems to quite naturally get a strong response and coupled with the verbal then weaning off the signal is easy. (continue to use the signal now and then so it is not lost) The drop signal is much more effective than the lowering the hand to the ground like a lure which actually leads to a slow response because of the very nature of it. A drop signal, with simultaneous verbal and as the dog hits the dirt an immediate treat if you wish followed by an immediate release. Personally, I do not use a treat in the down as I believe it encourages the dog to pop up even without a release. Down, whoooooo, good dog!!!!! Then it becomes an exciting race type of response instead of a grudging slow thing. With a sitting dog, pushing on the shoulders or pulling on the lead simply results in a dog resisting the pressure. A dog like the Rottweiler can push against the pressure easily. That type of pressure results in back pressure as a matter of equilibrium.

[mymeekrotti]

[quote=Judi W]Well, I think you need to back up in the training and start over. Think about how you taught the down. Does she really "know" what it means, or does she think it means the entire process you just described? I suspect it is the latter. It actually means fast quick belly in the dirt. QUOTE]

I think she knows what it means, she will do it. With out the extra coaching, even if I'm across the room, but sometimes she doesn't do it instantly. It's been the only thing that she didn't pick up really fast, but she seems to get it now. How do I actually go about getting her to do the instant belly to the dirt? She sometimes goes straight down, and sometimes goes in to a sit then down, like you were describing. I think I need to convey to her that down means belly to the dirt, not a leisurely lay down, but I don't know how to unteach her the bad habit Iv'e already taught her. Thanks!