Clicker training

[Soulworx]

Is this a stupid question... well im sure u'll all let me know if it is

With clicker training, the dog does what you want... you click then treat

Why is the click there? Does giving the treat immediately, as soon as the dog carries out the task, not imbed exactly the same idea in the dogs head? i.e. task then reward.

I mean the clicker is just something else u need to ween out of the whole training regime?

[Rott-Wiley]

With clicker training, and every other form of training for that matter, timing is critical. At the absolute moment that the dog is doing the correct behavior, the click is used to mark that instant. The dog eventually knows exactly when and what is wanted and that the reward will follow. The click serves as a marker and communicates to the dog what is wanted. And no, it's not a stupid question at all.

[flyballmom]

Exactly. The click tells the dog that the behavior was correct. Then the reward comes. When I don't have a clicker handy, the word "yess!" works just as well. Puppies, BTW, are sponges for clicker training.

[Roosmom]

[quote=Soulworx]Is this a stupid question... well im sure u'll all let me know if it is

With clicker training, the dog does what you want... you click then treat

Why is the click there? Does giving the treat immediately, as soon as the dog carries out the task, not imbed exactly the same idea in the dogs head?

It marks the exact second the dog is going to be rewarded for. if you just used the hand and teat by the time you got your hand to his mouth he could have moved.. are you still going to treat?
pups seem to take to this like flys to hunny.
It's even better used on dogs someone has already tired to train before and deamed the dog stupid. for sure they have abused what ever method they were trying or the dog would be trained. coming at them from a whole new angle is the easiest way to go.
fearful dogs seem to like the calmness of the clicker verses the voice at first.
Can you tell I love the clicker :)
roosmomdeb

[Mary Bouchard]

We click NO TREAT as our male would snap at everyones hands thinking they had a treat which scared people.

So we instituted the NILF program and added the clicker training.

My son trained his border collie to work the farm with the clicker and training cards that I got off the internet he uses praise not treats too.

[fbkeays]

I am certainly not the world's expert on clicker training, but I have a question. I know that the clicker marks the wanted behavior and you follow up with a treat. I have started agility class and have been using the clicker to reward the right behavior.
We have just started to chain two things together, ie jump- jump. I click for my dog jumping each jump and then reward after the second jump. So it is two clicks and a single reward. My instructor has told me that if I click, I must IMEDIATELY reward. So that would mean if I want to click for the first jump, I have to stop him, and give him treat. I don't agree with that- that means that I am only marking the very last obsticle and I don't think that is right either.
So, who is correct here? My instructor or me?

[Roosmom]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I am certainly not the world's expert on clicker training, but I have a question. I know that the clicker marks the wanted behavior and you follow up with a treat. I have started agility class and have been using the clicker to reward the right behavior.
We have just started to chain two things together, ie jump- jump. I click for my dog jumping each jump and then reward after the second jump. So it is two clicks and a single reward. My instructor has told me that if I click, I must IMEDIATELY reward. So that would mean if I want to click for the first jump, I have to stop him, and give him treat. I don't agree with that- that means that I am only marking the very last obsticle and I don't think that is right either.
So, who is correct here? My instructor or me?

I'm not an expert by a long shot.. But I think your right. the click only means i'll pay that, not that i'll pay it right this very second. Although I would make sure i paid two at the end :)
roosmomdeb

[DNeff]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I am certainly not the world's expert on clicker training, but I have a question. I know that the clicker marks the wanted behavior and you follow up with a treat. I have started agility class and have been using the clicker to reward the right behavior.
We have just started to chain two things together, ie jump- jump. I click for my dog jumping each jump and then reward after the second jump. So it is two clicks and a single reward. My instructor has told me that if I click, I must IMEDIATELY reward. So that would mean if I want to click for the first jump, I have to stop him, and give him treat. I don't agree with that- that means that I am only marking the very last obsticle and I don't think that is right either.
So, who is correct here? My instructor or me?

Your instructor.
In traditional clicker training. Each time you click, you are ending the behavior you have marked. Your marker (the click) should ALWAYS be followed by a reinforcer. The reinforcer does not have to immediately follow the click, but if you have asked for a second behavior after having clicked without rewarding, you are pretty much loosing the reinforcement value of the first click all together. In other words you are saying that the first click really didn't matter.

IMO if your dog is doing more than one jump, there is no need to click after each jump. I might occasionally click the first jump, but I would then stop and reward before asking for a second behavior. As with any training method you must raise your criteria as your dog progresses.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX EGC OAC OJC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Soulworx]

Thanks a lot for your reply's... im just wondering has anyone tried both traditional (which im used to) and clicker and seen a big enough difference to justify me changing my training methods?

[spidey]

I've tried both (I'm a "crossover trainer" - I used the traditional "jerk and praise" methods with my previous dogs and I use clicker with my current dog) - I've noticed a very big difference in the degree to which the dog "buys into" the training with the clicker (because the dog is an active participant, the training seems to "stick" faster), and a big difference in the enthusiasm he has for training and learning new things (he will actually come and get me for training sessions). I'm really sold on clicker training, not just because it's scientifically sound, but also because I have experienced just how well it works. It's certainly not the only valid way to train, but it's probably the only way I will train.

[Rott-Wiley]

I'm also a "crossover trainer" with a real strong background in traditional training methods and now use mostly clicker training methods. As spidey said, the dogs seem to pickup what you're trying to teach them much quicker using the clicker method.

[frontierrots]

I too am a cross over trainer and instructor.

The click always ends the behavior or chain of behaviors. After a click you always provide reinforcement (treat, tug, toss a toy etc)

If you click and do not stop and provide a high value reward (toy, treat, tug etc) then you may as well not be using the clicker as you won't be getting any more value from it than you would by using a verbal marker

With herding it is a bit different because you click and then let the dog herd more and that is the reward

With obedience and other sports, you train each segment separately, then you do them a few together. You click at the end of the behavior chain

Once the dog knows the behavior (knowing the behavior means the dog does it immediately whenever given the command, no matter where you are) then you fade out the clicker and switch to a verbal. At this point I then only use the clicker for fine tuning and motivating and for teaching new stuff

As an example Bea is fully Novice obedience competition trained. 90% of the time we work with no clicker and with random treats, praise and tugs as rewards. 10% we work using the clicker for fine tuning and motivating

[Soulworx]

Just one last question on the subject ( unless i think of more later ) My trainer doesn't use the clicker method in his training techniques... do you think that it is ok to use clicker at home, and not use it at school? Or will this just melt Bailey's brain( ) and be counter-productive?

[DNeff]

I see no problem with using a clicker just a home and using a verbal marker like "yes!" in class. I would start clicking and using your verbal marker so that your dog learns that "yes!" has the same reinforcement value as a click. Once you have spent some time developing the connection between the marker and your click you will be ready to go. Make sure to treat your verbal marker with the same type of reinforcement you would when clicking.

I might however, ask your instructor if you can bring your clicker to class. Most instructors are pretty open minded about stuff like that. Just explain that you are using the clicker at home and would like to be consist with it by incorporating it in to class.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX EGC OAC OJC OAJ NA TT CGC
Osa Mistico De Riven CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Soulworx]

Originally Posted by DNeff

I might however, ask your instructor if you can bring your clicker to class. Most instructors are pretty open minded about stuff like that. Just explain that you are using the clicker at home and would like to be consist with it by incorporating it in to class.

I wouldn't want to interupt the other dogs concentration... or do you not think it would make a difference?