No Limitations Ecollar Seminar

[Vicki]

I attended a No Limitations ecollar seminar last Saturday, [May 8th]. and
wanted to share my observations, hopefully try to share them without
editorial comment so that people can draw their own conclusions. I
have tried to note where my expectations for the seminar and the
actual seminar diverged; I have also tried to describe my
observations of the dogs without emotion. To that end I decided to
call what happens when the human hits the remote "button", as this
is the word Fred used in calling to out owners: "button, button,
button". "Button" is what happens when one pushes the button on the
remote and sends power to the unit on the dog's neck.

Expectation Number One: This would be a dog training seminar.
Actual Seminar: Unadulterated conditioning, (classical and operant)

To avoid confusion here are definitions:

Dog training:
1) Teach the dog what it is you want
2) Give "it" (your expectation) a cue
3) Reward the dog when he is right
4) AFTER the dog has demonstrated he fully understands the
expectation and the cue, correct the dog when he is wrong

Conditioning:
Stimulus – Response (Stimulus A produces Response B)

Fred was clear on this, to quote: "the button means come, go, stay,
sit, down, jump, off, up; the button means everything". How the
dog is to differentiate which command the button is calling for was
not discussed. Fred stated "he isn't into theory, the collar works
because it works".

Expectation Number Two: Finding the collars "working level" would
involve carefully studying the dog's body language, looking for
an "ear flick" or other subtle sign the dog was aware of the button.
Actual Seminar: No subtlety needed, the button intensity is such
that the dogs have varying reactions, but only of degree not of
kind, the reaction is highly visible and usually vocal as described
below.

Expectation Number Three: I had read, and heard, the dogs "didn't
mind" the button and quickly adjusted to the "stim".
Actual Seminar: The dogs ALL, every one, exhibited behaviors such
as the following:

1) Trying to run, especially trying to run to their owners,
hitting the end of the leash and struggling to keep going,
accompanied with yelping and other "vocalizations"
2) Jumping up on the person with the remote, ("button, button,
button" got the dog down), more yelping and hitting the end of the
leash
3) Laying down, belly on the ground ("button, button, button
got them on their feet), more yelping
4) Sitting and offering a paw
5) Crying. Fred did have a suggestion to deal with the
continuous "vocalization", he suggested to the owners that they
place the contact point directly under the dogs throat as this
would "help" with the "vocalization problem"
6) Jumping away from the "stim"
7) In one case I can not think of a single word to describe the
sound a Rottweiler made except to call it a scream (I left early as
I couldn't listen to this anymore)
8) Panting and drooling, (it was a very cool day)
9) Making themselves small, low body posture, head low, ears
and tail low
10) Exaggeratedly slow movements
11) The dogs stood, just dead still, staring at the person with
the remote without blinking. This outcome was held out as
desirable: "look how good the dog is now".

A few more observations: How the trainers spoke about dogs to the
owners surprised me, "don't let the dog argue with you", "don't let
the dog win", dogs were called "stupid", "retarded", "knucklehead",
the Rottweiler who screamed was called a "momma's boy". These type
of remarks were the only explanation for the any of the above dog
behavior.

Owners were told to put the dogs over a jump, no questions about
the dogs previous training or conditioning, just send him over again
and again, "till he clears it nicely". It was a fixed jump, the
kind you slide boards into, several of the dogs tried to climb it or
just stopped at the boards and turned to look at the person with the
remote, "button, button, button" until they went over and the button
was to be used again while the dog was in the middle of jumping.
The point of this was not discussed.

To sum up the seminar in one paragraph, Fred told the following
story; (I assume he found it illustrative of No Limitations
training, certainly I found it gave me insight into the No
Limitations ecollar trainers and their ecollar training method).
Fred was telling about a seminar where he was using a unit that has
one remote for two collars. He took one of the dogs out to "train"
and was getting no response, so he turned the collar up higher and
higher, keeping his finger on the button, and after this had gone on
for some time finally a participant at the seminar told him his dog
in the crate was going crazy. Seems he had forgotten to switch the
remote, and the dog in the crate was getting "fried". With the
exception of my husband and myself; THE PEOPLE THERE LAUGHED AT THIS
STORY. Fred went on to share his thought it was "no big deal", he
stated that when he came over and released the dog who had been
getting "fried" in the crate, " the dog just hopped right to it,
worked like a dream".

Vicki Magnus
P.O. Box 2155
Waldorf, Maryland 20604

[lblax]

well i am sorry you have had a bad ecollar experiance they are a good tool but let no one fool you you absolutly can not teach with an ecollar once the dog has learned the task you can use the ecollar as a correction or as a tool to refine by the dog getting faster to avoid the stimulas.. and any dog that cries out simply is not a mamma's boy the e collar was simply set to high. you only want the dog to notice the stimulas the reaction looked for may be the dog looking or coming to its owner or a slight head shake but never a yelp and every dog requires a differant setting

[spoteet]

I once entertained the idea of attending one of Fred's seminars and quickly ran from him when I did some research. The lady who gave the seminar I went to used to give seminars with Fred and stopped. Her seminar that I attended would have fulfilled all of your expectations. The only part of her theory that I did not agree with was she also uses the collar to teach a cammand. Fortunately, I wasn't there for that reason. I was there to learn how to use the collar to correct a behavior and it has worked great without frying Sajan or making him cry out.

Sorry you had such a bad experience. Hopefully you were able to learn something useful.

[Karlan]

That is disgusting. I am sorry you had to experience it and even sorrier for all dogs and people past and present that partake.

[Judi W]

Sledge hammers are not used by cabinet makers.

[Mick Trainer]

I do not know Fred nor what he is about etc but one thing is for sure if this is infact true (I have no reason to say it isn't) then he is no dog trainer. Simple. E-collars aside he cannot train dogs if he thinks these are correct training tool. If you hit the dog with compulsion and the dog shows avoidance and offers behavior that is not correct to what it should have shown (even worse when it shows total confusion) then the training is incorrect. He can talk the differecen between conditioning and training all he likes but learning is learning and this shows little of either. This rubbish annoys me as people use this too say "look at that. This is why e-coolars should be banned". When clearly even with no compulsive equipment this guy has no clue. I have saved 6 dogs that were headed for deaths door so far this year who owe their lives to e-collars this calender year. This is not training and is not e-collar training. I don't know what it is. "Not big on Theory". RRREEAAAAALLLYYY.

Mick.

[Vicki]

Mick, I agree with you, this is only about No Limitations, not an indictment of ecollars. This horrid guy is big here in the States, promises training in five minutes and apparently the owners seem to view their dog utterly shutting down as they fall into a state of learned helplessness as a good thing.

I made sure to post it here as there were two Rottweilers there. One allegedly ecollar literate dog got a good, long "correction", I mean long, the dog was just screaming and submissively whining, we got up, packed up our chairs and left the seminar, and WE COULD HEAR THE DOG ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE PARKING LOT. Made me sick and sad. Worse, a supposed Rottweiler expert is posting in support of the owner and "trainer". I believe I can tell you everything you need to know about them in one sentence. According to them, and this is a direct quote, I am NOT making this up, the Rottweiler is a "high drive, hard, strong willed, dominant dog" and at the same time, the Rottweiler is a "soft dog who is a 'momma's boy'".

The other Rottweiler was there with a couple who had a baby, sweet dog with not much training, but well behaved, boy do I worry about them, even posted on the No Limitations list to warn them about redirected aggression. Before we left the dog, who had been alert and happy prior to the seminar, quietly sitting by the owners feet, ended up pulling the leash out of their hands and trying to hide under their chairs, poor little thing was so scared, just trembling and trying to disappear into the ground.

It is my own fault I went to that seminar, well to part of it, two fun filled hours left in the day when I couldn't stand it anymore; I should have checked it out more carefully. I was reminded how careful we trainers have to be about "knowing" someone via the Internet; I certainly had my view changed on several trainers I'd thought I admired once I saw their views on No Limitations and how wonderful it was as "training".

I'd dismissed what I saw as "purely positive" people talking about the abuse that got passed off as training in some ecollar seminars; I was dead wrong and am sorry for my error. This is indeed the kind of thing that will get ecollars banned; can you imagine PETA or some other AR nuts getting video with the audience laughing about the dog getting shocked in the crate, not to mention any video of the dogs. I was ready to work for the ban myself, till I calmed down some.

I have had some other ecollar trainers reach out to me and talk about how to actually train with an ecollar; I'll be visiting as many of them as I can.

[Bruce Lanthier]

I thought I had remembered something about no limitations.
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11836

[Brooke&Ryan]

I'm so sorry that you had such a horrible experience....

[Storm]

That's why I can never understand how people put their dogs on a seminar without knowing who or what it is about, that is just so stupid! People should be fully aware of what they are in for when going on a seminar by educating themselves beforehand either by previous spectating with whoever or...................well there isn't really much else, I wouldn't really even be happy with someones referal. The person who does my protection work for me, I followed this guy all around the country to get to know what he is all about and only after about a year did we start training.

[Mick Trainer]

Vicki,

I cannot belive what I am hearing (I do believe it but am staggered by it). That in the current environment of knowledge and understanding of canine behavior that we still have trainers placing dogs into complete avoidance and shutting down and further that people see this is a positive result. Simply staggering.

It is staggering however how many trainers do not believe in learned helplessness norunderstand it.

Storm,

I agree it is amag how many people allow their dog to be worked by someone with knowing anything about what they are going to do.

[lblax]

one thing everyone needs to know about seminars

unless you know alot about the person giving the seminar never never take your dog

and just sit and listen even in a bad one like in this post where the methods are borderline barbaric you can still learn things. like you learned how not to use a ecollar... but seriously things could still be learned like timing. timing is important even with his barbaric methods so you throw out the barbaric methods and absorb what you learned about proper timing and apply that to sound and fair use of the ecollar

[Burnsway]

Originally Posted by lblax

and just sit and listen even in a bad one like in this post where the methods are borderline barbaric you can still learn things. like you learned how not to use a ecollar... but seriously things could still be learned like timing. timing is important even with his barbaric methods so you throw out the barbaric methods and absorb what you learned about proper timing and apply that to sound and fair use of the ecollar

Except for the fact you are giving the guy your money and that helps keep him in business to abuse more dogs.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Burnsway

Except for the fact you are giving the guy your money and that helps keep him in business to abuse more dogs.

but you usually dont know that until you have paid your money and are sitting at the seminar so you might as well sift through and take what is workable and thats why you nevr take your dog... the sad part is also that the general public is result oreintated so the people like this will always have a following and they always go to a new place to give a seminar as they are never invited back...

[spoteet]

When I went to the e-collar seminar I attended, I took Sajan. However, I was only going to let him participate IF I was comfortable with what was going on. I would not have had a problem refusing to let him participate anbd would have told the instructor exactly why. But I would have stayed and watched the rest. Fortunately, I had a much better expereince than you did.