No Limitations Ecollar Seminar

[Mavides]

Well, it sounds like Fred's methods haven't changed in the past 3-4 years! I went to one of his seminars a while back...I refused to work the dog I brought past the first couple exercises - it completely confused the dog and he shut down on training completely (he ended up fine after he went home and we re-did his original type training). I tried really hard to be open minded to the seminar - I stayed and watched the entired two days - which were exactly as you described yours! - but I just couldn't understand his "theory" behind it. I seem to recall hearing somewhere, (and I could be wrong!) that he was a self-taught trainer that didn't really even have a mentor! Aarrgghh! Unfortunately, he does seem to have a cult-like following that use these methods on every dog - and this gives e-collars a horrible name. In the right situation, used properly, an e-collar can be an incredible training tool. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience...hopefully you and your dog will recover just fine from it though - and at least you learned what NOT to do.

[UnclLou]

lblax wrote: let no one fool you you absolutly can not teach with an ecollar

LC: I know this is an old thread, but I just bumped into it. I use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors and find it's faster and easier on the dog and handler than any other tool. You can also use it to proof behaviors and to refine them, as you say.

Lblax wrote: and any dog that cries out simply is not a mamma's boy the e collar was simply set to high. you only want the dog to notice the stimulas the reaction looked for may be the dog looking or coming to its owner or a slight head shake but never a yelp

LC: There are a couple of reasons that dogs yelp. The obvious one is the sudden onset of pain. But a dog may also yelp because he's surprised. I've also had dog in my seminars that had prior high level use, such as at snakeproofing clinics, that yelped when they felt the stim at the level where they FIRST feel it. They made an association between the stim at the snakeproofing clinic and what they were feeling at this time. Some dogs also vocalize because they're learned that it gets them something they want, usually stopping the owner from doing something that the dog doesn't want to do.

Lblax wrote: and every dog requires a differant setting

LC: Actually most dogs, and most humans for that matter respond at about the same settings. There are some higher and some lower but most respond at about the same level.

spoteet wrote: The only part of her theory that I did not agree with was she also uses the collar to teach a cammand.

LC: Take a look at my website to see how I do this.

Mick Trainer wrote: "Not big on Theory". RRREEAAAAALLLYYY.

LC: Hi Mick, how are things. When I first met Fred (spent three full days with him in Las Vegas watching him train his own dogs, those of his clients and those dogs being trained by his employees) I realized that he knew nothing about dogs, how they thought, or their drives. I offered to teach him as I thought that it would make his training better. His response was classic. "I only need to know about one drive, the 'do it when I say do it drive.' "

Vicki wrote: promises training in five minutes and apparently the owners seem to view their dog utterly shutting down as they fall into a state of learned helplessness as a good thing.

LC: I think that many of his clients are fed up with their dogs. For years they've not been able to get control of them, out of ignorance or laziness and now, in five minutes, they see their dog behaving. They don't know enough to know that their dog has had all of his behaviors suppressed, they only know that now he's not dragging them down the street and is doing what they want to do. To them, it's a miracle!

Vicki wrote: I certainly had my view changed on several trainers I'd thought I admired once I saw their views on No Limitations and how wonderful it was as "training".

LC: As unpleasant as it was I think it's good that you went to the seminar. Now you can speak first-hand about what you saw instead of relying on what someone else says.

Storm wrote: That's why I can never understand how people put their dogs on a seminar without knowing who or what it is about

LC: I always recommend that people go see as many trainers as they can. You can always learn something even if it's what NOT to do. When NL seminars come up I recommend that people go, but leave their dogs at home.

[Nico'sMom]

I dont really know what to say, I think this is pretty disturbing. I believe that the Ecollar can be an ok training tool, but NOT used like this!!! Maybe for more advanced training or used very carefully with difficult dogs it is valuable, but I think Nico knows that sit means sit and I dont have to electrocute him all the time..
I'm pretty creeped out... if i had gone and seen all those dogs screaming like you described I probably would have caused a scene, espcially about the whole "momma's boy" thing... Re-reading that previous thread about this the Fred guy seems like an $&#&*($

[Judi W]

This "Fred guy" makes a great deal of money from those looking for shortcuts who have neither the time, nor patience to work "with" the dog. It is nothing more than willful ignornance and a total lack of respect. Another one of my early mentors (I have had so very many wonderful people in that role) once stated when she saw some incredible abuse, that if you won't stick up for your dog, you don't deserve to own it. Now this does not mean making excuses for a dog in lieu of solving a problem, but it means that the owner must defend their dog against sadists.

Often the lines are not so clear cut and some will mistakenly feel that the recommendations for their particular dog are too strong, however, in the case of this gentleman, I don't believe than there is any doubt. I agree, that there is no reason to give money to someone who has no understanding of behavior.

[MontanaRott]

Judi I think calling this man a "gentleman" is being really generous. I think alot of folks who go to torture sessions like this, oops, I mean TRAINING sessions, like has been stated already have given up are overwhelmed and are looking for that quick fix. Add to that ignorance about the breed and training and then throw in a so called "expert" and they get intimidated and their better judgement flies out the window. Plus for gosh sakes I am PAYING this person so they MUST know what they are doing and who am I to question them?
It is very sad that people are not APPALLED by what they are seeing, spreading the word, and staying away in droves instead of flocking like sheep to these things. I have nothing against e-collars when used CORRECTLY.

[Judi W]

Almost any time you see me use the term "gentleman" it is a euphamism as I am restrained here on the forums from using those wonderful ephatic nouns that I would be using in conversation. I should get an "attaboy" .............

[lblax]

Originally Posted by UnclLou

lblax wrote: let no one fool you you absolutly can not teach with an ecollar

LC: I know this is an old thread, but I just bumped into it. I use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors and find it's faster and easier on the dog and handler than any other tool. You can also use it to proof behaviors and to refine them, as you say.

Lblax wrote: and any dog that cries out simply is not a mamma's boy the e collar was simply set to high. you only want the dog to notice the stimulas the reaction looked for may be the dog looking or coming to its owner or a slight head shake but never a yelp

LC: There are a couple of reasons that dogs yelp. The obvious one is the sudden onset of pain. But a dog may also yelp because he's surprised. I've also had dog in my seminars that had prior high level use, such as at snakeproofing clinics, that yelped when they felt the stim at the level where they FIRST feel it. They made an association between the stim at the snakeproofing clinic and what they were feeling at this time. Some dogs also vocalize because they're learned that it gets them something they want, usually stopping the owner from doing something that the dog doesn't want to do.

Lblax wrote: and every dog requires a differant setting

LC: Actually most dogs, and most humans for that matter respond at about the same settings. There are some higher and some lower but most respond at about the same level.

spoteet wrote: The only part of her theory that I did not agree with was she also uses the collar to teach a cammand.

LC: Take a look at my website to see how I do this.

.

well lou you just cant get any more wrong!!! as we all know a fancy website does not make the trainer. while i truly believe and use e collars (for speeding up and reinforcing already learned command) i truly feel sorry for any one and there dog that believes that the ecollars niche in training is to teach...

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Almost any time you see me use the term "gentleman" it is a euphamism as I am restrained here on the forums from using those wonderful ephatic nouns that I would be using in conversation. I should get an "attaboy" .............

heeheehee, ATTA BOY Judi! I read the sarcasm in your post, just could not resist commenting. I had never heard of this guy until I read about him on these boards and the name that came to mind for me was Marquis de Sade. How anyone can defend this guys methods and refer anyone to him is beyond me.

[UnclLou]

Iblax wrote: well lou you just cant get any more wrong!!! as we all know a fancy website does not make the trainer.

LC: "FANCY WEBSITE???" ROFL. It's hardly "fancy." It's almost completely devoid of pictures or anything that could be termed, by the longest stretch of imagination, fancy. It's mostly a list of "how to" articles, that it doesn't look like you're bothered to look at. Had you done so you'd see that it's quite easy, on both the trainer and the dog, to use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors. It's easier to do so than it is with treats, a clicker or conventional methods.

Iblax wrote: i truly feel sorry for any one and there dog that believes that the ecollars niche in training is to teach...

LC: I feel sorry for people who make such statements in the absence of information to support them. Perhaps if, instead of just making such blanket statements, you'd give some reasons why you don't think it's possible or good to use the Ecollar to teach we'd make some progress. But I'd suggest that before you jump to any conclusions about what I do that you read at least two of the articles on my website; "Fitting the Ecollar to the Dog and Finding his Working Level" and "Teaching the Recall."

MontanaRott wrote: How anyone can defend this guys methods and refer anyone to him is beyond me.

LC: I'm certainly not making excuses for them but many people, even among experienced dog trainers, are not very good at "reading" dogs. I was at one of his seminars in LA a few years back and three experienced pet dog trainers were oohing and aahing about what he was doing with a dog he was working. I walked over to them and started pointing out what the dog's body language was telling them, but they were just not seeing. Their outcries changed to "oh my God." And the like.

LC: He doesn't always put a dog into learned helplessness at every one of his seminars. Sometimes the signs are much more subtle.

[Ironbark]

Can someone not get this guy shut down? Not only is he making a good living abusing dogs, most of the people he 'teaches', go away and start using, and passing on, the same methods. Truly appalling

[rottnelmo]

While I agree that "Fred's" methods are appaling and antiquated, there is a place for PROPER e-collar training and just because of one trainers horrid methods does not make e-training harmful or abusive.

Mick and Storm have given me EXCEPTIONAL advice in the use of e-collars as well as bark collars...just have to find the right trainer and the right usage. My experience, dont take your rottweiler to a lab trainer...in my experience this trainers labs were tougher nerved than my rott. I only needed the collar for a short time to tweak a few things...but he worked wonders teaching me how to use it correctly on my sibe.

I was at the park this weekend and saw an APPALING amount of dogs with e-collars on and being used inapporiately. A siberian husky (which I have owned and used an e-collar on properly and successfully) constantly getting nicked to the point where this guy was abusing his remote. If the dog would so much as bounce at another dog to play, the guy would nick him...how would I know this, because his collar gave a sound alert first then an electronic nick....I asked him about it...asked him where he learned to use the collar and he said a seminar. He walked away, like he didnt want me to press him further...I wonder if he has been to Fred.

Enough rambling.

[Karyn]

I am working with an E-collar now with Dawn Wolfe - www.SafeDogs.com I was very reluctant at first because I have heard horrible things about it but I needed Winston to stop chasing cars, bikes, skate boards etc. It was for his safety. He could have gotten killed or caused injury to someone else. I started with a collar used for a Jack Russel Terrier - I felt it before I put it on my dog to make sure he was not going to be "fried". In about three days he was not charging after vehicles. He occasionally wants to chase but he will not charge wildly after a moving vehicle and drag me along. He knew "sit", "down" "stay", "paw" before we ever went into the E-collar so the collar has refined his already learned behavior. We never go above a 4 or 5 - usually we are on 3. He is a civilzed dog now.. I love my dogs and wanted to be a responsible owner however, Winston weighs almost as much as I do and his physical strength was far superior to mine - I could not hold him - so the collar for me was a God send. I have watched Dawn work with other dogs and NEVER has she ever done such things as described in Fred's seminar. I have observed her working with K9 police dogs and have not seen her do the things described. Mr. Fred is a sadist!

[Judi W]

I did not in anyway misconstrue this thread to be a discussion on the use of ecollars, but rather on this particular person and his methods.

[Major]

Judi is correct but it looks as if the thread has lost its' purpose. Thanks everyone for your participation.