New Strategy for Training "Stay"?

[carolynnl4]

Athena knows stay fairly well -- she does have bad days, though, where she hasn't been exercised before we get to the training club, and she's hyper, and it's iffy about whether or not she can sit-stay for longer than 2 minutes.

What one of the club members suggested, was, put the dog in a sit-stay... Then grasp the leash, and lightly tug, building up to a strong tug. Whenever the dog resists, praise/treat. The goal is to reinforce to the dog what a stay is, and that they cannot get up, no matter what, until you use your release word.

Has anyone used this effectively? Or know someone who has? Admittedly, I haven't given this a fair chance, but the few times I have tried, she gets a little frustrated and starts mentally wandering off and starts looking for treats.
Is this too counterintuitive? Should I keep trying?

[Judi W]

I dislike resistance training. I want my dogs to be sensitive to any pressure I apply to the lead and to respond to it. This is so contradictory it makes me steam. On one hand we are asking the dogs not to ever pull on the lead, to be sensitive to our guidance and then telling them they should fight against our pulling on it. Seems darn most unfair to me!

Well,...............:D you asked!

[Storm]

If you place a dog in a position say down or sit and expect them firstly to hold the position you must have some sort of motivation for the dog to hold it, considering that this exercise is progressively built up. If you say spend two weeks for example where you bring a dog out into an area and as you get there you whip out a bag of sausages and and let the dog channel into you for a few minutes where he developes a behavior of channeling into you and for this behavior he is rewarded with sausage, he will get stronger and stronger and in future anticipate this reward and offer the behavior on entering the area. With this motivation instilled you can now teach a position and expect a dog to hold the position for a reward, sausage, which he understands and is highly motivated for. So the position will become reinforced by the dog learning that if I stay here the reward will come back to me and by breaking the position I get nothing. But if your dog never goes through this drive association, development exercise then there is no association for driving and reward so to place a dog in a position who has no development and then to give a treat is useless as the dog doesn't develop the desire and intensity nor is able to put the whole thing into perspective. It is not a progressively develop system, yet one of confused association and all other types of influence.

[Denise L.]

Cyrus has gotten so much better with his stays over the past 2 weeks. I have really incorporated stays into his everyday life. He sit stays before he goes outside (THAT one was tough, but he does it fine now), before company pets him and when company leaves. He also will sit and stay every time we come to a curb (he was PERFECT this morning on our walk, I never had to even open my mouth!) We also play hide and seek every day. He stays while I hide finding me only when I command him.

In the beginning, I gave him a treat whenever he held a stay now I give him praise.

I started with hide and seek and worked up to the other stuff. And of course we work on stays at training class too.

[Judi W]

Resistance training is tugging your dog into a mistake and then correcting it for responding to the tug. Nice huh? Of course she is confused and frustrted. If a technique results in confusion on the dog's part rather than clarification or makes the handler look undependable and capricious to the dog why would anyone select it unless they get off on corrections.

[Denise L.]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Resistance training is tugging your dog into a mistake and then correcting it for responding to the tug. Nice huh? Of course she is confused and frustrted. If a technique results in confusion on the dog's part rather than clarification or makes the handler look undependable and capricious to the dog why would anyone select it unless they get off on corrections.

I just saw that method being used on a training tape I ordered from Amazon just last night. The trainer didn't actually "tug" the lead but rather took up the slack until the dog resisted slightly. She said the fact that dog resisted showed he was thinking about it.

I figured I would leave it alone as I found a good "stay way" with my dog and if it ain't broke don't fix it!

[carolynnl4]

All right...y'all have convinced me. Thanks for putting my uneasy feelings into words :D
And Athena really is terrific at her stays, usually, but some days, she's been laying around on the apartment all day and then it's VERY unfair of me to expect her to do a solid sit-stay the first time she gets outside (and around other fun dogs, no less!) I'll just make more effort to give her a quick jog before class and quit working against her. :)

[Denise L.]

Originally Posted by carolynnl4

All right...y'all have convinced me. Thanks for putting my uneasy feelings into words :D
And Athena really is terrific at her stays, usually, but some days, she's been laying around on the apartment all day and then it's VERY unfair of me to expect her to do a solid sit-stay the first time she gets outside (and around other fun dogs, no less!) I'll just make more effort to give her a quick jog before class and quit working against her. :)

Distractions are an issue with Cyrus too and when I get home from work all he wants to do is play and zoom. And I let him BUT now he sits and stays with the door open in front of him and only explodes for his zoomie after I say OK. That is the kind of training we can "build" into their every day lives.

Distractions are tough...Cyrus will be letter perfect at home and seem to lose his memory at class sometimes. Patience is indeed a virtue we need to have!

[Storm]

Never expect a dog to hold a position when you know it can't at that specific level or time, you are just setting the dog up for failure or even allowing the dog to get some sort of success from breaking a position.

Once again people forget that if a dog is developed within parameters of stimulation and motivation where a dog is developed channeling whole heartedly for the motivation then this becomes the prime interest and to hold a position for the reward is more so important then tearing off to go play with Fido friend. To develop dogs this acute takes a lot of precision and commitment, where a LOT of people either don't have the inclination, time, know how or plain ability. Then what other aid do we have other then compulsion in its various forms.

[Denise L.]

Originally Posted by Storm

Never expect a dog to hold a position when you know it can't at that specific level or time, you are just setting the dog up for failure or even allowing the dog to get some sort of success from breaking a position.

Once again people forget that if a dog is developed within parameters of stimulation and motivation where a dog is developed channeling whole heartedly for the motivation then this becomes the prime interest and to hold a position for the reward is more so important then tearing off to go play with Fido friend. To develop dogs this acute takes a lot of precision and commitment, where a LOT of people either don't have the inclination, time, know how or plain ability. Then what other aid do we have other then compulsion in its various forms.

This is drummed into us repeatedly in training class. As such, I started him with short stays. His stays now are longer than they were 3 weeks ago. But it took a lot of time, practice and patience.

Last week I ran into a friend at the beach who is terrified of dogs. I put him in a down stay and he stayed for the entire 15-20 minutes we chatted. With all the distractions the beach held I was very happy to know our training is paying off.

[carolynnl4]

I don't know what it is about Athena, she can down-stay all day long, but sit-stay is iffy in the situations I mentioned. She also has the world's laziest sit. I'm starting to wonder if I need to get her x-rayed again (at 9 months her hips were fine).

[Mattweiser]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Resistance training is tugging your dog into a mistake and then correcting it for responding to the tug. Nice huh? Of course she is confused and frustrted. If a technique results in confusion on the dog's part rather than clarification or makes the handler look undependable and capricious to the dog why would anyone select it unless they get off on corrections.

Interesting Judi.

I use this training method in my proofing/fluency stages of teaching.

I never have seen a real problem with it. I don't correct with heavy punishment, simply a NRM and re-establish the down.... not sure why you are so polarized against it.

[Judi W]

Carolynn, the sit must be taught as an extended sit is not natural to the dog. Watch them on their own and they lie down or stand, but rarely (unless being baited) just sit for any extended period of time.

Matt,
I have no problem if someone uses it however I thought I explained my objection. I teach my dogs that the slightest pressure from me on the lead means they are to respond in the direction of the pressure. To then apply pressure and then turn around an correct for the response would be capricious. If you do not teach your dogs to be light to pressure, and they are accustomed to pulling back against it, then of course they are not going to feel betrayed by doing what they were taught.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Mattweiser

Interesting Judi.

I use this training method in my proofing/fluency stages of teaching.

I never have seen a real problem with it. I don't correct with heavy punishment, simply a NRM and re-establish the down.... not sure why you are so polarized against it.

yes i use it too i think it does a nice job of getting the dog to realize that sit is sit and platz is platz until you give the verbal release command.. it also depends on what you want from the dog my dogs were trained on informal walks "lets go" means forward movement and at training fuss means just that but they always have a verbal command.. i could see if youve taught your dog to follow along by a tug on the leash that it would cause conflict

[Judi W]

If you are questioning whether my dogs know and understand verbals are not optional, don't. And yes, they understand (I use "by me") informals as well. I personally however teach my dogs to respond to any pressure from me, verbal, body positioning or lead pressure, not to fight against it. I've not found it necessary to use resistance training to reinforce position. Personal choice. You bet, I'll correct strongly for anticipating movement as well. They must wait for a command.