Training without treats

[HerculesMomma]

I guess this new OB class I signed up for does training based upon correction only - no treats

This is new to me since the first class was treat based training and requested we use a halti or flat collar. This class they prefer to have a choker for the class, but you can use a prong "if you must" as they put it.

Is this a better training method then the treat based training? I'm not sure how well we'll do as Hercules has gotten very good, and very used to, training with treats. I think variety is good, and ultimately I want him to listen whether I have a treat or not. But this seems like a bit of departure from what I thought was the norm.

What do you guys think? Does this sound similar to the training methods anyone else uses?

[Lookie]

The training class Harley was in was correction only, even before they knew the commands, he had us correct the dogs.

Since I've not been able to find any other training programs in my area, I've been researching the internet, and doing a lot of training on my own until such time as I can get her into something else. I find the training with the treats is MUCH faster and gets better results.

But then, I'm not an expert, but I must say, she is learning a heck of a lot more than what she learnt in her first ob class.

[HerculesMomma]

Originally Posted by Lookie

The training class Harley was in was correction only, even before they knew the commands, he had us correct the dogs.

Since I've not been able to find any other training programs in my area, I've been researching the internet, and doing a lot of training on my own until such time as I can get her into something else. I find the training with the treats is MUCH faster and gets better results.

But then, I'm not an expert, but I must say, she is learning a heck of a lot more than what she learnt in her first ob class.

That hardly seems fair to correct a dog before he understand the command. Of course, this is a repeat class for us (basic OB) but it surely wouldn't be for many in the class.

I was wondering if I used treats when I practiced at home instead of corrections if this would simply confuse Hercules then? I do like the topics they will be covering in class as some we did not learn in the other class we took (stand, figure 8, sit on the left side etc). I just thought the treat training method was preferred, but I'm so new to it all, maybe I'm ill informed?

[Judi W]

There is nothing wrong with a dog working for a pat and a "good dog" as motivation. I'd have to watch the class, but it is absolutely possible to train a dog humanely without food! Of course it is. Food can speed up the dog's understanding of a new task but not always. Sometimes it interfers with the dog's concentration. It depends upon the handler's skill and the individual dog. Don't count out no treat training.

[lblax]

[quote=HerculesMomma]I guess this new OB class I signed up for does training based upon correction only - no treats

QUOTE] i agree with judi that it is possible to train a dog motivational without treats but "training based on correction only"" you cant teach with a correction a task that is not learned already.... tell us more but it doesnt sound good

[Judi W]

I strongly suspect that was a misinterpetation of the "no treats". Many people equate no treats with using corrections only.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I strongly suspect that was a misinterpetation of the "no treats". Many people equate no treats with using corrections only.

i hope so

[Lookie]

Well the training class I went to was choker only (or don't bother attending). The guy that did the class took a puppy from a different owner every time he wanted to show an example of what we had to do.

Teaching heel = Walking in a circle, and giving hard jerks if the leash went tight....all the while repeating the words "Heel. Harley, heel". After MUCH practising, and her STILL not getting the heel - I asked for help one on one with him. He held the leash in HIS hand and told me to give the correction. I did, and he told me I wasn't putting enough strength into it. I MUCH like Judi's suggestion, and it has since worked. She never did 'get it' with the correction way.

Down (I hated this one) = Putting hand on back of neck behind ears and forcing dogs face to the ground (rest of body will follow) while saying the down command.

Sit = was obviously forcing the dogs bum down while saying the command.

Etc, and so on.

He was of German descent, he owned all German Sheperds, and he was very rough with some people's dogs. Not abusive or anything, but I just really didn't like his methods.

I hope yours is not the same Herculesmomma!! I wish I had more options with regard to training...

[Judi W]

Lookie,
Doesn't sound like much of a trainer to me. I've only seen that kind of thing once in 30 years of training dogs and that was when some jerk was teaching a class for the city in a park where I was judging a small match. They were within sight so I could watch inbetween entries. He was one of those guys you've never seen before that sold himself to someone in parks and rec as a dog trainer. I know everyone by sight that competes. My rule of thumb is that if you don't take your own dog into competition where the rubber meets the road, you shouldn't claim to be a trainer.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Lookie

I wish I had more options with regard to training...

you do training with a book in one hand and a hot dog in the other would be better than what that guy gave you, you'd be better off just stumbling through it yourself if that was your only option... one advice i would like to give is this if you are in a training situation and even if you know absolutly nothing... if the training seems wrong and isnt fun then it is probably not good regardless of the status of the individual giving the class

[Denise L.]

Originally Posted by Judi W

There is nothing wrong with a dog working for a pat and a "good dog" as motivation. I'd have to watch the class, but it is absolutely possible to train a dog humanely without food! Of course it is. Food can speed up the dog's understanding of a new task but not always. Sometimes it interfers with the dog's concentration. It depends upon the handler's skill and the individual dog. Don't count out no treat training.

The trainer Cyrus and I are working with uses the pat and "good dog" method also. Pinch collar corrections.

Cyrus responds well with treats for things like sit, down, stay. come. But for heeling food definitely interferes.

This method is working very well for us.

My question: If I wanted to try the positive motivation only in the future would that confuse him?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Denise L.

. But for heeling food definitely interferes.

My question: If I wanted to try the positive motivation only in the future would that confuse him?

1st i was just wondering why food is getting in your way of teaching healing ive found that is one of the easiest ways to train the position /dog only gets feed when he is in proper position and if your dog is mauling your hand as you walk he only gets food when calm and in proper position, the drive of him pushing you is a good thing.
and to answer your your question i would say the time to use pos. mot. is now while he is learning not later
..
i guess im dumb here or missing something... i understand the reward for your dog in this class is verbal/physical praise... but how is your instructor teaching the positions such as platz is he physically positioning the dog with his hands??? or pulling the dog into position with the command and then praising?????? if they are it is posible to get results this way but the dog learns more rapidly /happier and retains his learned tasks better is lured into position with food or toy then as he reaches the position you simutainulasly feed and say platz(giving the command after the position is achieved) and praise the time for corrections come only after your dog has mastered the position associated with the command

[Jaegergirl]

treats are not allowed (and prongs are not either) in the classes i'm taking. my trainer is not anti-treats/prongs (she does use treats in the puppy classes), she just feels that at this stage of the game (we're in advanced obedience), the dogs should "know their stuff" and be doing things without treats as some people tend to use treats as bribes. so praise is used instead of food. corrections are used only when necessary. there are more praises than corrections in our class.

the reason for no prongs: since many of us are training for competition where prongs are not allowed anyway, she wants us to get used to using choke collars.

the first facility i went to for maverick's 1st 10 months of training never discouraged the use of treats and it really spoiled him in regards to attention. i didn't realize how much until we started at this new place. if i had a treat and he knew it, boy, he was focused on me like no one's business. but no food, no attention. we've come a long way in that area.

as for the prong, i was never encouraged at the first facility to try maverick without his prong so i thought of his prong as the only way i could manage him around other dogs. when i started at the new place, the trainer let me use the prong for the first part of class. then she asked me to got to the choke "just to see" how maverick would do. much to my surprise, maverick behaved just as well with the choke and he did the prong and i haven't used it since.

[Judi W]

"as for the prong, i was never encouraged at the first facility to try maverick without his prong so i thought of his prong as the only way i could manage him around other dogs. "

Just as you thought you couldn't manage your dog without a prong, many believe they cannot get their dog to do anything without a piece of food in front of the dog's nose...........

If either is true, then the entire relationship needs to be reevaluated

[lblax]

[quote=Judi WJust as you thought you couldn't manage your dog without a prong, many believe they cannot get their dog to do anything without a piece of food in front of the dog's nose...........

If either is true, then the entire relationship needs to be reevaluated[/QUOTE]absolutly!!! food / toys have big benefits when initially teaching positions and should be very quickly weaned out and replaced with praise/play so that your dog works because he wants to work to please both himself and the dog.. call me new fashion but when people start talking puppies/untrained young dogs and new handlers and add to that mix prong collar /correction method training i see unhappiness in the future...

and i think Jaegergirl's class sounds based on her dogs level very good and she's on the right track