"Positive" Trainers advice needed (long)

[Shaw_2112]

I decided to change training methods when I got Harley. Previously I’ve used positive/ negative reinforcement and have had great success. This time I’ve been using positive reinforcement only, using food as the motivator, and I’m trying very hard not to revert to old methods (or lose my patience). We’ve been doing basic OB training for about 20 minutes a day for several weeks indoors and outdoors (weather permitting) and she’s responding very well until… another dog comes into the picture. I live in a neighborhood where many yards are chain link fenced all the way around and other dogs can come right up to the sidewalk. I thought this would be good distraction training but it has backfired on me. When she sees another dog (and this could be 100ft or more away) I immediately start putting her through her paces trying to get her attention back on me but the other dogs are much more interesting than the treats I’m holding. Understand, this is not aggression, she wants to PLAY! I haven’t put her into a group class because it would be a complete fiasco. When she gets around another dog(s) she becomes completely insane! Am I going about this the wrong way? I’d appreciate any advice.

[Mattweiser]

Shane,

I will post my take on this.

If you are using food as the primary motivation tool... then you have to "ensure" that the dog is "hungry enough" that the motivator will be elevated above her desire to interact with other dogs.

Does that make sense?

[frontierrots]

The higher the distraction the higher value the training treat needs to be. Practice at home you can probably get away using kibble, practice in the situation you describe requires a much higher value treat.

ALSO if your dog is that excited about other dogs, then you need to practice with dogs at a farther away distance until your dog is able to focus better. Eventually you will be able to work your dog right next to other dogs, but until your dog understands that exercises apply under different situations

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Shaw_2112

I decided to change training methods when I got Harley. Previously I’ve used positive/ negative reinforcement and have had great success. This time I’ve been using positive reinforcement only, using food as the motivator, and I’m trying very hard not to revert to old methods (or lose my patience).

When she sees another dog (and this could be 100ft or more away) I immediately start putting her through her paces trying to get her attention back on me but the other dogs are much more interesting than the treats I’m holding. Understand, this is not aggression, she wants to PLAY!

I haven’t put her into a group class because it would be a complete fiasco. When she gets around another dog(s) she becomes completely insane!

i would suggest a group class would be the proper step to conquer this join one and believe me you wont be alone with this problem

[Rott-Wiley]

I agree with Matt. Also I don't know how old she is but you do need to consider getting her around other dogs and still working. If you don't want to take her into a formal class, and she is fine with dogs that are 100 feet away, then start there. Work her and praise her as long as she does well. Move in to 95 feet and again more praise and treats. If the treats don't keep her attention you need to up the anti some way. Better treats or more hungry on her part. Then move in to 90 feet and repeat. As soon as she fails, drop back and repeat from where she was good.

I'd still like to get a dog like this into a class environment and flood her with treats and praise when she does well.

[LynnS]

I agree with what others have posted re: working in a class, upping the value of the rewards and introducing distractions gradually. I just wanted to add that age and maturity is also a factor....

[spidey]

I agree that you should enter a class (ideally one which matches your training philosophy with this dog). In my opinion, you need to remember to revise your expectations downward when distractions enter the mix. So what you expect and get from her in your living room is not what you expect when you're outside with distractions (standard proofing, really). The "D"s of distraction, distance and duration should only be changed one at a time and then only gradually (so a 5 minute sit stay with you ten feet away in the living room becomes a 10 second sit stay with you right there when you're outside with distractions, and the duration and distance increase separately and gradually). I'd start by working on simple attention exercises like "watch me", and I'd start far enough away from other dogs that she's not incredibly excited about them, give a BIG payoff for success, and gradually get closer only when you're having good success on a regular basis. It's also a good idea, assuming you allow her to interact with other dogs, to start asking for something like a watch me before you allow her to interact - if she wants something and you train her that it's a quid pro quo deal here (you give me a watch me, I let you go play), she'll start to understand the work ethic you're driving toward. Remember, with positive training you WANT her to win, so you need to set up the situation such that she can.

[Shaw_2112]

I realized being “hungry” during our training sessions would be a motivating factor so I don’t feed her until after our sessions are done. I’m also going to try cheese on our next session and see how that works for a higher value treat. I’m really trying to avoid using correction, at least until I’ve exhausted other avenues, not because I disagree with it but simply because this is as much a learning experience for me as it is for Harley. I’m hesitant about getting her into a class only because she would be so disruptive, I would like to be a little more confident that she would not go completely ape before trying OB with other dogs. I’ve looked into a local kennel club that I like and am going to pursue that in the near future. I would like her to be a little more relaxed before we start though. As far as age/maturity, Harley is about 11 months now, I adopted her in Jan. when she was approx. 9 mos. She’s intelligent and has adapted to me and my lifestyle readily. She took very little time to be house trained and has learned the basics (sit, down, stay, come) very quickly (not that she listens 100% but we’re working on that ).

Great advice from everyone, thanks for your input. We’re going to try some of these ideas tomorrow and see what we get. :)

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Shaw_2112

II’m really trying to avoid using correction, at least until I’ve exhausted other avenues, not because I disagree with it but simply because this is as much a learning experience for me as it is for Harley. :)

correction after a dog has truly learned the task is reasonable-- fair and needed if you ever expect fast sure obediance i truly believe that if you try to proof your dog without doing any correction work it just wont happen to give a quick example of this some new people came to our club last saturday they have a 1 year old gsd it had been through 3 obediance classes at the same breed club and the trainer did not believe in prong-- slip collars or correction for that matter ....... there dogs problem is exactly same as your it goes nuts around other dogs... the other training facility had signed them up to see a special trainer and a behavorist to deal with his dog aggression they called it..... we put a prong on the dog and after 2 corrections(this was one of the softest dogs i'd ever seen) he was workable around the other dogs now this dog isnt cured but with the properly timed corrections and the working throughthe problem if they keep at it he will be totally reliable over time.... they got farther with him in an hour than what they had in all 3 ob classes.... and saved themselves thousand of dollars in the long run... getting in a group class and being motivationally worked alog with corrections is exactly what your dog needs

[spidey]

Whether using corrections is reasonable or not, there is nothing wrong with someone wishing to train without corrections, and I do not think that it should be implied that there is. Many people do extremely well with 100% positive training (including titling their dogs in more than one venue), and many people feel that their choice NOT to use corrections and solve their training issues in positive ways is more important than a quick fix. This is not a slam against those who use corrections, as they are certainly effective and not unreasonable when used appropriately, but please do not imply that there is something wrong with not using corrections, or that good, reliable obedience and proofing are not possible without them, since they clearly are. Since Shaw_2112 stated that he is using positive methods, I think it's inappropriate to state that what Harley "needs" is corrections. What this dog needs is desensitization and continued training, there are many ways to accomplish that, and corrections do not have to be part of it.

[Dominey]

Have you read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor?
I have just finished and it is a great book about positive reinforcement training. Anyway, it tells you that the positive reinforcer doesn't always have to be the same (ie food) and that it works better if you vary it with other reinforcers. The reinforcer needs to be something of value to the dog, and as frontierrots says the value to Harley of playing with other dogs may be higher value than any other treat. Is there any way you could use playing with other dogs as a reward for a behaviour? You might need to find a doggie friend to do this, or maybe at the group class? Anyway, if he learns that if he behaves, then he gets to play, and if he doesn't behave then he doesn't get to play, then you have the motivator in your control! I'm not sure if it makes sense how I've written it but it seemed like a great concept to me!

[Shaw_2112]

Originally Posted by Dominey

Have you read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor?
I have just finished and it is a great book about positive reinforcement training. Anyway, it tells you that the positive reinforcer doesn't always have to be the same (ie food) and that it works better if you vary it with other reinforcers. The reinforcer needs to be something of value to the dog, and as frontierrots says the value to Harley of playing with other dogs may be higher value than any other treat. Is there any way you could use playing with other dogs as a reward for a behaviour? You might need to find a doggie friend to do this, or maybe at the group class? Anyway, if he learns that if he behaves, then he gets to play, and if he doesn't behave then he doesn't get to play, then you have the motivator in your control! I'm not sure if it makes sense how I've written it but it seemed like a great concept to me!

I haven't read that. I'll check it out. You all may be correct about having to get into a group class. That may just be the motivator she needs. Using alternative motivators is not new to me, I just haven't found the right combination yet.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by spidey

Whether using corrections is reasonable or not, there is nothing wrong with someone wishing to train without corrections, and I do not think that it should be implied that there is. t.

there are basicaly3 steps to training
1. teaching(positive/motivational)
2 correction/compulsion(after the task has been 100%learned)
3. proofing..
you can not have any of the above without all and all have there place in training.....if your dog keeps giving you the finger you dont switch from hot dogs to steak!!! cause he will want lobster next...

[Judi W]

One of my early mentors taught me that one should always be honest with the dog. That means to make sure they know when things are right. It also means that it is dishonest not to let them know when they are wrong. It does not mean being frivolous in corrections and it does not mean using a correction to teach details.

Things that impede the teaching, such as a dog acting totally uncontrolled, need to be corrected or you cannot go forward with the training. Simply ignoring the behavior tells the dog that you do not object and gives them permission to continue. Some things are self-rewarding for the dog so ignoring or continuing to try to up the distraction towards you simply is not going to be effective. It doesn't take too long to find out what those things are that are going to over-ride your attempts.

It comes down to a matter of honesty which will teach the dog to trust you.

[Shaw_2112]

Originally Posted by Judi W

One of my early mentors taught me that one should always be honest with the dog. That means to make sure they know when things are right. It also means that it is dishonest not to let them know when they are wrong. It does not mean being frivolous in corrections and it does not mean using a correction to teach details.

Things that impede the teaching, such as a dog acting totally uncontrolled, need to be corrected or you cannot go forward with the training. Simply ignoring the behavior tells the dog that you do not object and gives them permission to continue. Some things are self-rewarding for the dog so ignoring or continuing to try to up the distraction towards you simply is not going to be effective. It doesn't take too long to find out what those things are that are going to over-ride your attempts.

It comes down to a matter of honesty which will teach the dog to trust you.

Do you think a verbal correction while reversing direction away from the distraction would be sufficient? Or am I going to have to resort to physical correction like Iblax has suggested?