Gentle Leader vs prong???

[jas'smom]

Well, went to Jasmines first obedience class last night. It was an orientation only session the real ones start next week. I really liked the practical approach of the trainer. She seems to have a lot of experience and knowledge. I did have one question, wanted to hear what you all think. The trainer suggested, did not require, we use a halti or gentle leader with our dogs. I have been using a prong collar with Jasmine, she is almost 17 months old now, on the advise of a trainer I consulted with earlier. Jas has had a few fear aggresstion issues with other dogs in the past. I have been working on confidence exercises and she has made great strides. She no longer jumps at other dogs, just walks by and ignores them. Question, should I attempt the gentle leader or halti or continue with the prong until she can go on a simple training chain or buckle collar? I would like to compete with her in obedience trials at some point.

[samanthac]

Prong is my preference. I find it much more effective on a large thick necked dog like a Rottweiler and know more than a few who can quite easily slip out of a Halti Collar in quick order.

[Mojave's Mom]

Prong with me too. Head-collars were made for horses, not dogs. There've been many injuries due to those collars and I'd rather not witness a dog snap it's neck in half for lack of understanding that if he hits the end of that leash hard enough while on that collar, he just might die. The prong is much more humane as it does not apply any pressure to the dog unless the person on the other end of the leash issues a correction. So no gagging themselves to death on a walk with a nylon or slip collar....

Besides, I don't like the way dogs work while they're on the halti/gentle leader. They're more concerned about getting it off their faces than they are in their owner and the work. For heeling purposes, I find it easier to teach the dog what I'd like it to do and then correct any disobedience once it's understood.

[samanthac]

Originally Posted by Mojave's Mom

Besides, I don't like the way dogs work while they're on the halti/gentle leader. They're more concerned about getting it off their faces than they are in their owner and the work.

I noticed this as well.

[jas'smom]

Originally Posted by samanthac

I noticed this as well.

I saw this too last night, even with the experienced obedience dog.

[Judy Chrusch]

I really don't like the Halti's either and they're especially not good if you have a dog that pulls . You must be very careful not to throw the neck out and that easilly can happen. I never thought they were the best choice for a rottweiler but that's JMO.

If she's had fear aggression issues and she's been use to the prong and you use it properly, which I'm sure you do, then I say forget the halti.

Judy

[Bruce Lanthier]

I would also suggest not to change something that works and doesn't bother your dog to something that may work and may bother your. Make changes when the current program isn't working not when it is working. Since your dog is doing so well you may want to put the prong and buckle collar on and hook into the buckle. If he starts to act up hook into the prong. You can also have a light lead hooked to prong for corrections and the regular lead hooked to the buckle for regular control. Eventually the prong won't be needed.

[jas'smom]

All this makes perfect sense. Why change something that works. The instructor by no means insisted that the leader be used so I will continue with the prong until Jas is PERFECT!!! ;) ;) ;) (and that would be when?)

[LORHEL]

I've found that even my own vet doesn't "like to see the dogs brought in with pinch collars", as well as several classes, won't allow them, only the Gentle Leader.... a certain petstore we took an early beginnners class at, would not allow them either. I do however use them versus the GL, they are much more effective for control/pulling issues.

I tried the GL for awhile, but it is for horses, really, and my female already has a strained neck muscle issue which would only make it ten times worse if she had the GL on and was jerking her neck around like that. The other problem I had when in class was that she would CONTSTANTLY obsessively not leave the darn thing alone, and we could not even get through a class without me telling her no, leave it etc... it was miserable for us both.

Obviously its a personal choice, but I do use the prong/pinch collar versus the GL or any other method.

:)

[Burnsway]

Originally Posted by LORHEL

a certain petstore we took an early beginnners class at, would not allow them either.
:)

Although this seems to be against that "certain stores" policy I have met three trainers and two managers of those same chain stores that would allow them if the trainer was comfortable with it.

I never ended up in their classes but did investigate and question that policy.

I even got snotty with one manager and said....Hmmmmmnnnnnn your stores policy is against them but yet you sell them...... :D

jas'smom

I would stick with the prong. It is working for you. And you will be able as time goes to train your dog enough to not need one... ;)

[Muckdogs]

Gentle leaders are not training tools. They are utilized to manuever the dogs head, like a steeering wheel. Prong collars, event hough people use them as "power steering" are training tools. Corrections (whether you believe in inductive or compulsive training) are an integral part of training. You simply cannot give an effective correction with a GL. Maybe you can, but snapping the dogs neck in the process of giving a hard correction is overcorrecitng, IMHO. Two different things for two different purposes. It pisses me off when "trainers" (and I realize that the OP's trainer only made a suggestion, but other "trainers" have made requirements) try to substitute one for the other. Folks who don't know any better readily buy into that crap.

[Brooke&Ryan]

Suzanne Clothier wrote a very interesting article about head halters here: http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html

:)

[spoteet]

I have had several non-rottweiler people tell me to use a Halti for Sajan's dog aggression. I bought one when he was a little over a year old and no matter how snug it was he would get it off in seconds. I also did not like the distraction it caused the dogs while wearing them, they spent all their attention trying to get it off.

The schutzhund seminar I recently went to, the Dean Calderon one. He told me I should use a halti on Sajan too. He claimed the dog could not bite with one on, I didn't quiet follow that one. He also tld me Sajan was too weak nerved to handle corrections from either a prong or an e-collar Sajan has no problem with hard corrections from either if deserved and he is equally rewarded when he does good.

[jas'smom]

Originally Posted by spoteet

I have had several non-rottweiler people tell me to use a Halti for Sajan's dog aggression. I bought one when he was a little over a year old and no matter how snug it was he would get it off in seconds. I also did not like the distraction it caused the dogs while wearing them, they spent all their attention trying to get it off.

The schutzhund seminar I recently went to, the Dean Calderon one. He told me I should use a halti on Sajan too. He claimed the dog could not bite with one on, I didn't quiet follow that one. He also tld me Sajan was too weak nerved to handle corrections from either a prong or an e-collar Sajan has no problem with hard corrections from either if deserved and he is equally rewarded when he does good.

I certainly did not see anything in the halti or gentle leader that would prevent a bite Seems to me that the dogs could bite just fine with one on.

[frontierrots]

Originally Posted by Muckdogs

Gentle leaders are not training tools. They are utilized to manuever the dogs head, like a steeering wheel. Prong collars, event hough people use them as "power steering" are training tools. Corrections (whether you believe in inductive or compulsive training) are an integral part of training. You simply cannot give an effective correction with a GL. Maybe you can, but snapping the dogs neck in the process of giving a hard correction is overcorrecitng, IMHO. Two different things for two different purposes. It pisses me off when "trainers" (and I realize that the OP's trainer only made a suggestion, but other "trainers" have made requirements) try to substitute one for the other. Folks who don't know any better readily buy into that crap.

Gentle Leaders are NEVER supposed to be on a leash over 6' long, NEVER to be used to give the dog a jerked leash correction, EVER.

They are a management tool. Designed to enable the dog to self correct into proper position, so that the handler can then reward the dog for being in position. ALL handler leash "corrections" are never a jerk and release but instead a gentle pull to the side and loosen

IF used correctly, neck injuries are a non occurance

ALSO they are meant to be acclimated to the dog slowly. Put on treat dog, take off, put on treat dog, take off. Until over a week's time the dog is used to it. Much like when people first get glasses or you first put a collar on a baby pup, they need to slowly get used to them or they freak

Prong collars are also meant to be a self correction. They are NOT meant to be used with a jerk and release correction. ONLY choke collars are made for that method.

ALL training collars and halters are meant to be used as TRAINING aids only. The dog is supposed to be weaned off them and onto a buckle collar.

Fear aggressive dogs and displacement aggressive dogs should also never be in a prong collar because they often will lash out at the correction. That can often lead to handle injuries. (wanna see my leg when I walked a large GSD mix out to the owner on the owner provided prong and he hit the prong -I did not jerk-going after another dog?)