Gentle Leader vs prong???

[Burnsway]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Would anyone care to put money on this if I am the one training them??????????

Mick.

HA!HA! We can't add you to the challenge! You are too good. I said NOVICE!!!!


:D :D :D ....... ;)

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by spidey

I'm saying that even though it's quoted all over the place, almost all the quotes come from a mention of a "study in Germany" from a seminar (the name of the woman associated with the seminar escapes me, and I'm not at my computer, where I have the information, but if you dig around a bit you'll find her name), and despite looking for quite some time now (and I'm a good Internet researcher) I have yet to find a single reference to this study which is independent of this one mention by this one woman at the seminar (if there is one, it's well-hidden, or has gone online in the last month or two). It does not seem to ever have been published in a peer-reviewed journal (or anywhere else for that matter), and while it's certainly possible that it's just never been published in English, it seems more likely at this point, since every single reference to it I have ever come across is related to this one woman from this seminar, that it either never took place, or wasn't truly a "study" in any kind of scientific sense. It's not just me who's looked, either - I started looking after someone called me on it when I brought it up elsewhere, and I found that there just doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that this study exists. I certainly think that the things this study aims to prove are possible, and I certainly WISH the study was out there and/or accessible, but to date I haven't seen any evidence that it actually exists.

I must agree with this. For many years now I have been searching for this study and have found exactly zero to validify it's existance. I will not say 100% that it does not exist but I find nothing to prove to me that it does. I have had German trainer friends research it for me in their home land including phoning all universities etc. When I first asked them about it they were like "what are you talking about". These guys are full time professional trainers and had never heard of such a study.

Mick.

[JBK]

Great post Mick!

Oh...BTW, my money is definately on you! :D

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by Burnsway

HA!HA! We can't add you to the challenge! You are too good. I said NOVICE!!!!


:D :D :D ....... ;)

OOHHHH no fair. I wanted to stack the deck.

[Judi W]

Actually, I believe it is a legend popularized for pinch collar fans to reference. I remember at least 20 or more years ago some guy showed up at our training club with a poor little 4 1/2 month old pup and the little guy was wearing at least 10 pounds of pinch. I spoke to him about it and he gave me this lecture about this mythical study. (first time he'd ever attempted to train a dog BTW). I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of dogs and know more competitiors (yeah, even more than that) and have never seen or even heard in real life of a dog being injured by a regular training collar. I have no objections to a pinch particularly, but this reasoning for using one is dubious indeed.

[Anne]

This is Anne, referred to in Micks post.

It should be said that my dog Sophie, had a very broken course of training with Mick due to her knee surgeries. Upon Mick recommencing training with us my incorrect posture was corrected and we have no further problems. I now walk Sophie on a Martingale and all is well.

BTW guys, put your money on Mick... you'll make a fortune. Who is keeping book?? :D

[cucciolone]

My opinion that the choke collar can cause damage is not so much related to any scientific studies (mythical or not :p) as from personal experience and gut instinct. A few years ago I was with my boy in a crowded public place. He kept breaking sits and barreling pushily toward every dog and person that neared. At the time we were having enormous problems with aggression, both dog and human, so my nerves were as taut as violin strings. He was wearing a choke chain, I gave him a very hard correction, and he made these hideous gagging, coughing noises. I'm convinced that I hurt his trachea, even if temporarily. I still feel bad about it. With my dog, I have needed a tool that would allow me to give emphatic corrections if necessary, and the choke collar isn't a tool that I like for that purpose. My reservations about it may be unfounded, unsubstantiated, or whatever, but at least the prong is self-limiting, and the pressure applied is evenly distributed. (It has never evinced any hideous gasping noises.)

If Mick Trainer stands behind the Gentle Leader, that's good enough for me :), but I would probably only be willing to use one if he were the one to show me how. :D

[samanthac]

Originally Posted by Mick Trainer

Would anyone care to put money on this if I am the one training them??????????

Mick.

LOL...Mick. No. But 99% of people do not have the experience you have and out of those 95% don't have the mental fortitude to train their dogs the way you do!

[LynnS]

I have had really good success with a GL, prong ,flat collar and no collar. I use different collars depending on what I am trying to accomplish and where we are in the training process and what the distraction level is. Maybe I am wierd but it works for us.

[spidey]

Michela: I completely agree - as I said, I believe that what the "study" claims to show is entirely possible, and I prefer a prong to a choke chain myself for a training collar.

[Judi W]

If you are having lunging with any force, the safest for the dog would be an agitation harness or agitation collar, whether that force is initiated by the dog or the handler.

[Katrine]

My girls is 2 years old and my husband and I tried (it seemed) everything to get her to stop pulling when she's walked on leash. Training videos, classes, trainers, books, gentle leaders, peanut butter, sardines, hot dogs, praying, nothing worked. It got so bad my husband refused to walk her on leash and would only take her to off leash regional parks that few people knew of. We felt choke collars were not humane and were leary of prong collars. Well after reading everything on prong collars on this site I bought one this weekend and believe me, I am kicking myself for not doing this long ago. THE CHANGE WAS INSTANTANEOUS, ONE PINCH WHEN SHE PULLED AND SHE WAS CURED FOREVER! More amazingly she took it so in stride that you would have thought we just gave her bowl of peanut butter with her favorite treats as a topping. A cat ran in front of us and she didn't even think of chasing it. She doesn't fuss when we put it on or take it off. She even seems happier since we aren't fighting each other. Now we can envision a day when we can walk her on leash with her regular collar.

[Muckdogs]

Not that I am a compulsion addict, but where is the reserve when using the GL. Take for instance the dog trainign for a heeling pattern. With the use of an ecollar, the reserve is the nick. Yes, it is designed to cause a bit of discomfort to the dog, but only occurs when the desired behavior(that the dog already has been taught) is not demonstrated. If the dog forges, it is nicked and as a result, the dog moves back into the pocket because for that particular exercise it knows that only by being out of position will it incurr a correction. The reward is not being nicked, the compulsion is being nicked.

When using the GL, is the compulsion moving the body back into the pocket by manipulating the head and neck, or is it a voice correction that triggers the desired learned response through previous head and neck manipulation or is it triggered by expected external reward (food, toy, etc..)? What is your fallback position if all goes bad? Is it some form of correction/manipulation with the GL, or is it lack of reward? If it is lack of reward, why use the GL at all. If it is a correction by manipulating the head and neck, why risk the injury at all? Can you in good faith tell me that the risk of injury is still so deminimus if you unexpectedly came upon an offlead dog and your dog really wanted to go after it. Of course, I know you will probably say that yor dog should be environmentally sound, neutral to other dogs, and desensitized to this, etc.... but the fact remains that it still happens. It is the exact same effect as a football player being facemasked, which is large penalty in the NFL, for the reason that many players have suffered serious neck injuries. What is the difference?

[Mick Trainer]

Muckdogs,

What you are referring to is positive punishment which can be placed upon the dog with the GL/Halti type collars by a simply short sharp pop on the collar. This will apply pressure to the muzzle without moving the head etc The dog learns to avoid this correction to stay in position. This is done after the dog has learnt to heal not in the early training process. Irrespective of what equipment you use you can correct (+vely punish) a behavior and the dog learsn the same way. When the collar is loose the dog feels comfort (add reward in as you normally would) but simply apply discomfort when the dog offers the incorrect behavior. Same as e-collar, pinch etc. The learning principles are the same no matter what equipment you are using at the time.

Mick.

[spidey]

Can you in good faith tell me that the risk of injury is still so deminimus if you unexpectedly came upon an offlead dog and your dog really wanted to go after it.

When a dog is wearing a halter, the leash should always be short enough that the dog can't build up enough momentum to end up getting a really hard jerk. One of the biggest errors people make when using halters is letting the leash be too long. Again, it comes under the "correct use" heading. Used properly in the situation above, you'd simply direct the dog's head to the side, so the dog moved in a circle, you wouldn't jerk up or back.