Gentle Leader vs prong???

[jakesfostermom]

great collection of thoughts and opinions on the GL and the prong! I've enjoyed following this.....and behind the scenes, without knowing this thread would materialize, I bought the GL at the suggestion of chain pet store trainer (she hated seeing my rott & pit in a prong collar, because of the prejudice they would receive from the public). I had already purchased prong collars for both of my males and had been using them with great success. I agreed to give the GL a try as well. After using both, on my dogs, I will be putting the GL back inside the plastic case for return to the chain pet store. We needed a self-correcting training tool, which the prong delivered. I now can walk my big guys through our neighborhood or any park, on a loose leash, with very little direction from me......we're looking forward to returning to a flat buckle collar in the future! sorry this got long...also the reference to GL as halter, used for horses only, made me laugh - I wish I had a video of my dogs first experience with the GL on....they looked like horses - bucking and snorting!

[spidey]

IF used correctly, neck injuries are a non occurance

This is true - also, the creator of the GL keeps very careful watch over his product (I know this from personal experience, since he personally called me after I emailed him about a problem I was having with the GL), and to date there are NO documented cases of injury from GLs (don't you think you'd have heard specifics, rather than rumours, if there were? Similar to the "study" about choke chains that intensive searching has completely failed to turn up any hard evidence of so far). Now, I no longer use the GL, and I do agree with many of the complaints about them (although they can most certainly be used for training), but there simply haven't been any documented injuries related to their proper use.

[papa bear's mom]

Hi everybody.
I use a nylon choke collar with my Rott for his corrections. It seems to work for us. (He is fear aggressive) Also, I'm not a fan of the prong, but it has its purpose. One of my friends uses it for her lab/golden mix and it works for her. I just never felt I needed to use it for any of my dogs.
Also, I have used the Halti (the GL did not work well for me) for my lab who pulls like crazy, and she does very well with it. Also the one trainer we have consulted about Papa Bear suggested that we could use the Halti to help direct his head movements when needed b/c of his aggression. (She said that it will turn his head away as well as shut his mouth, giving us more control over his head & potential biting.) I have not tried it as of yet, b/c currently he is muzzled when interacting with strangers at this point in his rehabilitation.
That is just my two cents. I'm still learning. I think it's a personal preference. When you find something that works for you, stick with it. It doesn't mean it is right for everyone. All dogs are individuals and need different techniques for training. At least that is my opinion, as I have mainly rescue dogs and they ALL have some kind of issue to work on. ;)

[Sansano]

Originally Posted by Muckdogs

Gentle leaders are not training tools. They are utilized to manuever the dogs head, like a steeering wheel. Prong collars, event hough people use them as "power steering" are training tools. Corrections (whether you believe in inductive or compulsive training) are an integral part of training. You simply cannot give an effective correction with a GL. Maybe you can, but snapping the dogs neck in the process of giving a hard correction is overcorrecitng, IMHO. Two different things for two different purposes. It pisses me off when "trainers" (and I realize that the OP's trainer only made a suggestion, but other "trainers" have made requirements) try to substitute one for the other. Folks who don't know any better readily buy into that crap.

That about says it all. If you want to train use a flat, a choke or a prong. if you want to control, use a Gl.

[Mojave's Mom]

Originally Posted by spidey

the creator of the GL keeps very careful watch over his product (I know this from personal experience, since he personally called me after I emailed him about a problem I was having with the GL), and to date there are NO documented cases of injury from GLs

Not to start a fight, but is the creator of the GL in contact with every single person across the country who buys his product?

A very stupid lady in my dog class who didn't listen to anything my trainer had to say went out and got one for her dog, didn't bother to learn how to work with it first (or as Diane pointed out, desensitize the dog to it) strapped it on the dog. Dog went after another dog, forgetting about the GL (dog aggressive) hit the end and hurt it's neck (owner wasn't paying attention, as usual). According to HER, x-rays showed his neck was skewed. Did she report it? Hell if I know. Dog was out of class for several weeks. Perhaps she's full of crap...perhaps she was too embarrassed to come back to class...who knows...

Just because the creator doesn't personally hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Unless he's got some kind of agreement with every vet out there in the nation to report it back to him, I'd find it hard to believe that he can really track things that closely.....but that's JMO.

[Rott-Wiley]

Both collars have their place in training. I'm a very firm believer in using what will get the job done. But I also have to say that I have never had real good results using a halti or gentle leader. Maybe it is more me then the dog, maybe I've just used a standard choke chain collar for so long that it is what works for me and the dog has to learn to adapt to it.

[cucciolone]

Originally Posted by frontierrots

Prong collars are also meant to be a self correction. They are NOT meant to be used with a jerk and release correction. ONLY choke collars are made for that method.

I have nothing to say about Gentle Leaders, but this statement threw me a bit. Are you talking only about pulling-on-lead-type self-corrections? I've used jerk and release corrections with the prong with great success in certain scenarios, such as slow motion "whenever the hell I feel like it" sits. Also, it was my understanding that hard jerks on the choke collar could lead to tracheal damage?

[Burnsway]

Well lets do a challenge. Lets take 12 Mature Rottweilers with 12 novice owners and 6 on the gentle leader and 6 on the Prong(Dogs not the owners....:D). Lets see which six owners have an easier time working their dog. I know what 6 I have my money on..........

[spidey]

is the creator of the GL in contact with every single person across the country who buys his product?

He is willing to be - as is clearly outlined in the leaflet you get with the GL. And he does try to find out about any problems attributed to his product.

I don't know what a "skewed neck" is in real medical terms, or how you'd diagnose it on an x-ray, but if she wasn't using the product correctly (which is what it sounds like), then I can see that a dog could get a stiff neck from hitting the end of it. I'm merely pointing out that as of yet, I've yet to see or hear of any real, properly-documented evidence that they cause harm, and one lady with a dubious-sounding diagnosis isn't really it ;) - I'll also note that this is true of the "choke chains damage the neck" study, which also doesn't seem to exist if you do some looking, and even though I really don't like choke chains, I dislike mystery studies more. I'm not defending or advocating the GL (although it worked for my purposes), I'm just refuting the statement that they cause harm to the neck. Enough people use them that you'd think there'd be some documented evidence of harm by now.

[jakesfostermom]

As posted by Burnsway:

Well lets do a challenge. Lets take 12 Mature Rottweilers with 12 novice owners and 6 on the gentle leader and 6 on the Prong(Dogs not the owners....). Lets see which six owners have an easier time working their dog. I know what 6 I have my money on..........

Based on my experience with the gentle leader & the prong.....it would be GL = 0 and prong = 6........

[moondog]

The thing that bothers me the most about a head halter is that even at its most passive, it still is across the nose and sending a message. I would like my dog to learn how to make good decisions through training, but if she was never free enough to make a mistake, how could she truly make a good choice?

I can understand its use for some dogs, just not mine. :)

[Wookie'sMom]

I'll also note that this is true of the "choke chains damage the neck" study, which also doesn't seem to exist if you do some looking, and even though I really don't like choke chains, I dislike mystery studies more.

I'm confused. Do you mean that this study hasn't really taken place? Or that you couldn't find it? I'm guessing you're saying that it never really took place. I looked a bit and the actual study wasn't in anything I found, just info quoted as coming from a seminar...

[Mick Trainer]

In the end use what you are comfortable with. Both pieces of equipment if used correctly will achieve good results.

Now as to those saying that the head halta type collars are not training equipment etc better take a look at your learning principles and in particular -ve re-enforcement and +ve punishment. Head halta's can indeed be used to train a dog. They can shape and alter behavior and if used correctly are an extremely effective training tool that is gentle to the dog and easy for handlers to use. There is if used incorrectly a small risk of neck injury but iwth a little pratice this is usually easy to avoid.

This is something I wrote for another forum not long ago. It may be worth a read for many here.

As I have stated on this forum previously I use and recommend head haltis for many of my customers (aprox 95%). I find them to be a very a effective piece of training equipment that is gentle to the dog, fast to teach and easy for most handlers to use. They are, as all equipment is, best used under the instruction of a trainer ofey with their effective use.

Many people will argue that a halti cannot be used to train a dog to the point were the dog can work without the equipment on. This simply is not the case with the halti or for that matter any equipment. Any handler that understands the learning principles can condition a dog to respond to a given trigger first time everytime. Training equipment simply makes the job quicker and easier. Some go further and argue that the dog will be only conditioned to respond when the halti is on due to the halti covering the dogs muzzle. Once again this is only true if the teaching is incorrect in it's principles and the trigger is the equipment and not the sound etc. Many dogs will indeed early in the process trigger to many different stimulus it sees/feels at the time of the positioning etc. This is similar to the first time food is offered for a command to be learnt in a bribe mentality. The dog will associate with the hand in a certain position, the smell of food etc. But soon as the dog further experiments and one after the other the stimulus is removed they are left with only the one trigger. Certainly a dog can make this association to the halti but as long as the person uses it in a way that requires the dog to offer the behavior and it is either rewarded or discouraged then there is no reason that this will occur.

It has been argued before that the idea of a correctly trained and proofed dog can vary from trainer to trainer, that one trainer may consider a dog trained at a level another simply will not. So to clarify this I should state what I consider "trained". A dog that will respond to a given trigger irrespective of other stimulus around at the time or secondary signal given by the handler. However not every customer I have believes this to be the standard and will not gain this level of control. I add this to make sure no one feels I have stated that every dog I train gets to this level. But those that wish too can using the halti.

Further to this this only giving the required responce only when the equipment is present is clearly not only a potential problem with the halti. All training equipment runs this same risk. We have all seen dogs that require to stay on thier various pieces of equipment for the entirity of their lives. In the vast majority of cases this is not due to the equipment but as a result of the training process not being completed fully or the equipment used in a proper fashion. The halti is indeed a piece of equipment that is often and can easly be used incorrectly and as such gain such results. We have all seen dogs walking down the street with haltis on pulling like a train with their heads turned in a sideway position. I am in no way advocating this and see real danger in it. These dogs will never learn to walk without the halti being on (most are still poor even with it on) but in this case at no time is the halti being used to train the dog but purely to control it. No equipment with gain good results with such equipment use. It is hard to judge equipment fairly if the user takes no time to learn the correct usage.

Any other arguement which I touched on above used against the Halti's is their portential for doing neck damage. Once again it is certianly possible for neck injury to occur if not used correctly. K-9 and Lou Castle here both are concerned about a dog pulling out quickly and jurking on the halti. This would indeed cause neck injury. But in all my time using haltis on hundreds of dogs I am yet to see this occur. It could happen tommorow but as a potential risk it is very small. Once a person is taught how to use the halti the likelihood is small. As I have stated before one of my customers is Nicola Reynoldson who is the head of the "Australian Animal Physiotherapy Society". She frequents the training centre often and treats dogs, trainers her own dog as well as run training courses for my trainers on how to assertain injury within a dog. She has observed us train dogs and has no problem stating that the potential risk is extremely small and has placed a halti on her dog in the training process. Further to this even with the number of dogs she has treated for other injuries at or through myself as a trainer or at the training centre she has never found one dog at the training centre to have sustrained a neck injury. This with hundreds of dogs passing through every year and about 95% trained on Halti's. Many will argue that just because I havn't had injuries that others have not. I agree with this. Others probably have. However I can only argue the merits of how I use them. People for years have used this same arguement regards e-collars and pinch collars and for years those of us that research and practice our technique with this equipment argue "come and see what I do" as a way to fight this arguement. Correct use of any equipment determines it's success or failure.

Biting the tongue is also another potential risk. Once again it can happen and I have even had it happen to me. Twice. Once again out of how ever many dogs I have trained I would say that this is not a very high risk. But it is there. Further to this this is a small injury usually fixed in a matter of seconds. Worse injuries are done on agility fields, bite work sessions, by the use of slip collars everyday.

Clearly however the risk does exists and people should be aware that it does and seek assistance upon the use of such equipment. This however is not unique to the halti. Almost all training equipment posses a risk. I have seen injuries caused by slip chains yet still use them, same goes for pinch and e-collars (although not usually physical for e-collars). Few pieces of equipment carry the potential risk for tempermant damage that an e-collar does but used correctly they gain very good results and the risk can be small. The real question is how much risk to how much gain? Does the potential gain outweigh the potential risk? Some like K-9 say no, I say yes. I find the risk to be small and the gain large. I find most people get results very quickly with the halti's which gains them confidence and enables them to train the dog quickly and effectively.

Does the halti work soley by leverage? No. It can indeed be used to increase ones leaverage over the dog by making the handler able to move the dogs head around by using it's muzzle to do so. Examples of this would be pulling the head back over the dogs head forcing it to push backwards into a sit. But this really is not learning/teaching/training/conditioning. It is simply forcing the dog into position. In the end the dog will learn the trigger and learn too form the position. But it will be slow. Having the dog offer the behavior is usually far more beneficial and much faster to teach. So some would say "why do you need to halti?". In short to teach a dog purely to sit I don't. ReallyweI never do but it helps to gain the results quicker. The halti however is vaslty more flexible than just leverage. It can also be used to apply pressure to the muzzle of the dog for either positive punishment or negative re-enforcement. Both of these can be used without drastic (and often no) alteration to the dogs neck and change of shape between the dogs neck and head. In all cases the halti must go tight before the change and leverage to the neck is applied, (although mild movement to the head of the dog can be gained with no damage to the dog neck). Gaining a reasonably deft hand at this is required for the equipment to work consistantly. However this need not take huge amounts of time nor require you to become an expert. Most people pick it up pretty well in 10 minutes aprox and become quite deft at it in a very short period of time there after. Of course some never do but the vast majority have little trouble with this.

It can be argued that using the halti is using compulsion early in the training process which I certainly agree to. The halti does apply pressure in a way that creates discomfort for the dog. No argument here. But in the real world were you are dealing with people who only want to train their dog quickly and to do a few things or dogs that have existing problems I find this to be an invaluable tool. I find that we can gain results quicker for the customer with the use to such compulsion. In a perfect world I would not but it isn't. Does this mean that the halti places the dog into submission? It could be argued to an extent that it does. Most dogs experience of mild stress and will show some signs of avoidance when the halti is first fitted. Some show more and some less depending on many factors. For most however if the halti is fitted but not connected to the lead for around 5-15 minutes (depending on the dog) usually this effect is very minor. Most do however feel some slight discomfort when it is first hooked up. They very quickly feel the control over them and they do not like this. But when used along with a lot of praise etc this is very minor and lasts a very limited time. Most when played with whilst wearing the halti or fed with it on soon loose their dislike of it and are more than happy to have it put on etc. The quickly learn to work with it.

Further to this often the mild reduction in temperament is often a positive for many owners who are often at their wits end with the dog and something that quietens the dog quickly is a god send. This often enables them to get the dogs attention and illicit the correct behavior from the dog enabling them to praise the dog vaslty more than they have been in previous times. Many will argue that this will reduce the learning ability of a dog as a dog learns slower(or not at all) when it is under stress. Thisis indeed true especially when the stress is at a high level. However when the stress is at a low level often the learning ability is lifted. In most cases the tress felt for most dogs is very small and for a very limited time.

Is the halti purely a crutch? Once again I will answer no to this, it does not need to be. The halti like all equipment can be used to condition the dog to respond to a given trigger (usually a verbal command) and only that trigger. I have really covered this above but just wanted to re-iterate the point as the term crutch is so often used.

The halti also should be be seen to work in a vacuum that all someone needs is a halti and bingo bango there you go. The halti like all other pieces of equipment requires other tools and knowledge used in the training process. As I have stated when and how is important but clearly so are things such as praise and other re-enforcement and their correct usage are necessary tools in any training program.

As I have said before I actively use Halti's in my training organisation and find them to be a very quick and effective training tool that is gentle to the dog, fast to teach and easy for customers to use with little risk. The halti is also cheap which cannot be under estimated as a positive. Many people simply cannot offord more expensive equipment. Same as many cannot offord one on one training sessions so equipment were an experienced trainers needs to be present all the time is also out of the question.

Anne has used a Halti as I have described to her and feels she has gained the results she required. She did have some minor issues through the training process due to by her own admission incorrect usage. As her trainer this is also a fault on my behave. She did go to a Pinch for a short time as she had recieved advice that this may gain results were the halti had not. I was more than happy to comply as I find either piece of equipment can be used effectively and if the customer wants to use something to gain the results I am happy to show them how to best use this. Also it is possible that with the halti if someone has used it incorrectly for a large amount of time that the dog is conditioned not to respond to it and an alteration to the equipment can be a positive step. This does not mean that the halti could never work but it may take longer. Upon veiwing Anne handling the dog I saw a fault in her action (on both the pinch and halti) and advised her of such. At this time the halti was reinstigated and as she altered her action and thus her signals to Sophie the problem ceased. I have had many customers who have needed a refresher on the correct use before the best results can be gained. I had the same thing when I used to train vaslty more with pinch and e-collars. All these gain the results when used correctly but often small changes to what is required have larger changes to the signals being recieved by the dog. Many things alter the perception that is gained by a customer and understanding and adjusting as necessary is a tool of any good trainer.

I hope that many find this informative and begin people thinking about this piece of equipment whether they agree with me ot not. There is a risk with using the halti as there is with any piece of equipment. In the case of the halti it is a risk of physical injury but as I have stated I find this to be a very small risk with many customers gaining quick results in the training of their dogs of which we all know the benefits of.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by jakesfostermom

As posted by Burnsway:


Based on my experience with the gentle leader & the prong.....it would be GL = 0 and prong = 6........

Would anyone care to put money on this if I am the one training them??????????

Mick.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Wookie'sMom

I'm confused. Do you mean that this study hasn't really taken place? Or that you couldn't find it? I'm guessing you're saying that it never really took place. I looked a bit and the actual study wasn't in anything I found, just info quoted as coming from a seminar...

I'm saying that even though it's quoted all over the place, almost all the quotes come from a mention of a "study in Germany" from a Silverton seminar, and despite looking for quite some time now (and I'm a good Internet researcher) I have yet to find a single reference to this study which is independent of this one mention by this one woman at the seminar (if there is one, it's well-hidden, or has gone online in the last month or two). It does not seem to ever have been published in a peer-reviewed journal (or anywhere else for that matter), and while it's certainly possible that it's just never been published in English, it seems more likely at this point, since every single reference to it I have ever come across is related to this one woman from this seminar, that it either never took place, or wasn't truly a "study" in any kind of scientific sense. It's not just me who's looked, either - I started looking after someone called me on it when I brought it up elsewhere, and I found that there just doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that this study exists. I certainly think that the things this study claims to prove are possible, and I certainly WISH the study was out there and/or accessible, but to date I haven't seen any evidence that it actually exists.