crate/potty training problems

[LauraT]

I am new to this site, but not new to dogs; we've had 1 Rottie and 3 Belgian Malinois. I've easily crate-trained the first Rottie and 3 Malinois from 8 wks., but now have a new female Rottie, today 11 wks old, (got her @ 8wks), who is proving to be extremely difficult to crate/potty train. I'm SURE it's a behavior she's developed when she wants to be out of her crate. EX: When she wakes I immediately take her out, she pees/poops, etc. Over the these past 2 weeks, if I'd put her back into her crate and she fussed, i'd take her back outside thinking she needed to do more business. But most of the time she seems to just want to play, etc. so i'll put her back into her crate. Then, she whines and fusses, even growls and barks, and immediately proceeds to pee as she's pawing at the crate door--right after she's gone and been out. It can be a large crate or very small tight crate, doesn't matter. Worse than that, she'll lie right down in it, contrary to the idea that dogs don't like to soil their beds. Add this contrary behvavior to the mix: at night in a tiny crate she'll wake, paw at door, and i'll take her out, she'll pee right away, then right back in with no mess in the crate. During the day, she'll fuss AND mess, regardless of the consistency of my routine for her, feedings, etc. Maybe the Malinois spoiled me; the last Rottie we had died 7 years ago. Any ideas?

[carib]

I had the same problem with Roxy, she pee in the crate 4 or 5 times at the same age. I asumed it was my fault for not letting her out when she needed. Sometimes she could hold for 2 hours, sometimes only for 10 minuts, specially after playtime. I paid more attention in the signals and I took her more often for potty and she stopped the behavior by herself. Good luck!

[LauraT]

thanks for the reply. It sounds similar, but my problem is that i do take her out frequently, moniter her food/water quantities, etc., study her signals, but her signals to 'just come out of the crate' and 'potty' are the same; there's no regular pattern to her BM's, and i was constantly taking her out, but then nothing, then back in and then she pees, not while outside but as soon as she's back in the crate, fussing to get out. I don't get it. At this point i'm throwing all my expectations out the window and ignoring her if she pees in the crate after she's been out, then a few min. later cleaning it up without letting her out of the crate. I think she's associating "crate-pee" with "out of the crate."...?

[excellrott]

Do you have plenty of play periods between eating, sleeping and pooping? I've heard it said many times that a tired puppy is a happy puppy.

[LauraT]

yes we have tried it all...long fast walks, yard play, house play, then outside for one last pee/poop before the crate,(with or without any results) and "Rottie" either: is tired and plops down for a nap, making the crate training predictable and easy, or is hyper and wild and a little aggressive and then fusses when put away and proceeds to pee...no pattern, really...is it a Rottie-personality thing? And what about the sleeping next to/on her pee, when she's got a huge crate with plenty of unsoiled areas? Our Malinois will tiptoe rather than be in a soiled area--not "Rottie"...(we're not settled on a name for her yet)...

[carib]

I don't want to be acused of cruelty, but why don't try to get her disgusted of peeing in her crate? I mean, when she pees let her in the dirty crate at least 30 minutes so she realizes than that doesn't get her out and is smelly and wet and not fun at all? I don't think is a Rottie thing..... until somebody with a bigger experience with pups helps you I am going to check in all my rottie books for a case like that. Talk to you later!

[LauraT]

hi Carib, nope, it doesn't sound cruel to me. That's what i've begun to do. It's like hit and miss outside with her: her signals to go out and then poop/pee are exactly the same as when she just wants out. I actually watched her yesterday pee outside, then when put back in her crate immediately stand and whine with paws on the door, and just pee come out, it was amazing. I left her there, and after 10 min. or so of crying she settled down on the wet newspaper and fell asleep...i don't know if she'll "mature' and find it disgusting, but i don't know what else to do. It really seems like a particular puppy-bahavior thing. did your dog ever seem to get so distracted outside that she didn't potty while out? that is also what seems to go on here, like even if she has to go out and i take her and i know she's due for a whiz or poop, if there's lawn people, cars, anything distracting, we can be out 3o min. and nothing,...then back inside, and pee...i think i've got to stop trying so hard, but i don't want to teach her it's okay to pee in her crate either.

[spidey]

I mean, when she pees let her in the dirty crate at least 30 minutes so she realizes than that doesn't get her out and is smelly and wet and not fun at all?

All this will do is further overcome her natural desire to keep her sleeping space clean, and in a dog which is already having trouble with the idea of crate training, you do NOT want to do this. This will just guarantee you that she'll mess in her crate more than she does now.

She cannot mess in her crate if she's empty - do not put her in her crate unless she has JUST emptied herself, and then take her out before she has a chance to mess again. Tons of praise for going outside, take water up a few hours before bed, etc. She's only 11 weeks old - take her out every two hours for the time being, and after eating sleeping and playing. Trying to use harsh methods like leaving her in a filthy crate on a very young puppy like this is exactly the wrong thing to do.

But before you do ANY of that, take her to the vet to make sure that there isn't a medical issue here - there is no point trying to use behavioural therapy on a medical problem. And she is not doing it because she wants out of her crate, she's doing it because when you've gotta go, you've gotta go - again, she cannot mess in her crate if she's empty, just don't crate her until she's empty and take her out again before she's full again.

[carib]

Yes, Roxy gets distracted with cars and people and forgets to pee, but I found out that she particularly likes a spot and ALWAYS pees when I take her there, so after a walk I pass by that spot before coming up home and she will always pee. I think is because thats the first place she start using and getting a reward. Give her something really yummy, like hot dog (I used liver, yeek!) everytime she pee outside. I have another theory. Where did you get the pup? because if comes from a pet store she is probably used to sleep in wet papers, and as Amanda spidey said, is doin't any good. Keep us informed, and pacience!

[LauraT]

To Spidey: I am seeking suggestions b/c i am tired and at a loss. For what it 's worth, i began with how you suggest. That's basic crate/potty training, in my book. problem is we're way past that, (meaning, if it had worked according to usual, we wouldn't be here asking "what now?"), and how long do i have to devote to walking her, waiting for her to "empty" her bladder..? This a.m. i was out for 35 minutes, and after the first 60 seconds when she peed a little, that was all i could get her to do. All she wanted to do was put stuff in her mouth, plop on the ground, play, etc. I have to work, take kid to school, etc., and i do structure her around my schedules. Finally i had to put her up, and she fussed, then pooped in her crate while i was in my bathroom, maybe 2 min. after being put up; and by the way, i experiment w/ 60 seconds to 30 min. outside, consistency w/ a little mixing it up, tons of praise, etc. I've done this stuff before on 3 other dogs very easily after 1 or 2 weeks, so...not w/ this one and there seems to be no pattern. She seems to literally get distracted and "forget"(?) to go outside, till i have no choice but to put her up. I will even "indulge her" and run to the crate to let her out 2-3 successive times after doing nothing outside, thinking, "this time she'll go", but she just sniffs and plays. I run out of time, put her back up, and when she fusses again and i've got to leave her, she'll pee, while she's looking at me and fussing. And by the way, i do clean her crate, but i'm just not rushing to it anymore,.

[LauraT]

PS. to Spidey: Last week i spent $140 at the vet to rule out any urinary/bowel problems, and there are none. Honestly, i really am, at this point, trying to be somewhat scientific and methodical in how i deal with this puppy, by observing, experimenting, etc., b/c if i can't figure it out or get anything somewhat consistent going, i will have to give her up. She's requiring more "work" than i can manage. I even tried correcting her with a sharp "no!" this a.m. when she began to pee in her crate, and she stopped (she does understand 'no'), but wouldn't resume outside. I left her outside for 20 min. or so), but when she went back in the crate, at some point she "finished" peeing. What would you do????