Swinging around for the stand for exam

[MontanaRott]

Ok you guys have helped us iron out problems before so here is the latest. Guerin was getting tense for the stand for exam, did sit-ups with him cured that deal. Now for the SFE he swings his body around so that the person trying to touch him cannot. No threats no growling just swings away. So do we give him a harsh correction with the prong? Our worry there is he will think the person touching him did it and there by making him work harder to get away. HELP!
He is due to go back in the conformation ring this spring not to mention having a go for the CD.

[lblax]

i would start by kneeling next to and cradle him a bit ( one arm ahead of the groin area and the other under neath a front leg and hold to his collar) and talk to him while the exam is going on and have the person give him treats you may even start off giving him treats with the hand that was holding the collar.... i wouldnt correct him for this because he is not diorectly disdobeying a command it is more of a nerve or behavioral situation in that he simply doesnt want to be handled and you will have to desensitize him to the handling.... dont correct him unless he growls

[fbkeays]

I could be very confused, but isn't your boy doing conformation? What does he do with the judge? If he isn't moving when the breed judge (or practice judge), then I would start looking at that and build on that.
Some other suggestions is to stand him up next to a wall so he can't swing out of the way. I would stand directly in front, and let him eat bait, while the person is going over him. It could just be a single finger touch to start with. Slowly work up from there. Work in short periods with lots of mental rest time in between. He is getting stressed about this. Is he doing this with just one person or everyone? Also, make sure the exam person doesn't make eye contact. He could be reacting to eye contact.
Just some random thoughts.

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by lblax

i would start by kneeling next to and cradle him a bit ( one arm ahead of the groin area and the other under neath a front leg and hold to his collar) and talk to him while the exam is going on and have the person give him treats you may even start off giving him treats with the hand that was holding the collar.... i wouldnt correct him for this because he is not diorectly disdobeying a command it is more of a nerve or behavioral situation in that he simply doesnt want to be handled and you will have to desensitize him to the handling.... dont correct him unless he growls

Thanks Larry that is right in line with what we were thinking. And the visual of how to hold him and treat him for the exam sounds like just the ticket. We will give that a shot in class. He of course stands beautifully for us and has no problem with people touching him in anyother situation, even lets kids climb all over him, but the SFE is a whole nuther thing!

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by fbkeays

I could be very confused, but isn't your boy doing conformation? What does he do with the judge? If he isn't moving when the breed judge (or practice judge), then I would start looking at that and build on that.
Some other suggestions is to stand him up next to a wall so he can't swing out of the way. I would stand directly in front, and let him eat bait, while the person is going over him. It could just be a single finger touch to start with. Slowly work up from there. Work in short periods with lots of mental rest time in between. He is getting stressed about this. Is he doing this with just one person or everyone? Also, make sure the exam person doesn't make eye contact. He could be reacting to eye contact.
Just some random thoughts.

Thanks! Excellent suggestions also! He went in the Sieger ring once, did beautifully, conformation once and backed up when the judge came towards him. This swinging around is new. And it is with everyone but us right now.

[DNeff]

Another suggestion is to work some sits for exam, instead of stands. This gets him used to being further away from you while he has to maintain position and someone goes over him. Sits allow your dog to really understand the importance of maintaining position, in a way that is easier for the dog to master and be successful with quickly.You start out with your dog in heel in a sit, give the stay command and stay in heel position while the person does the exam. Reward during the actual exam. Gradually move to standing toe to toe with him in a sit, and then begin to stand further and further away with him in a sit while he is examed.

Once you get his confidence all the way up on a sit for exam, you work stand for exam with you right beside him in heel position and gradually add duration, distance and intensity.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[MontanaRott]

Thanks Dawn! That seems so logical, and so simple. That is what makes this place so great. Lots of suggestions for things to try to conquer a problem. With Guerin we are thinking it is attitude more then a lack of confidence, but either way these suggestions should help us get him past it. We are thinking an attitude issue because he was in a very familiar place (to him) with people he knows VERY well and still swung away. BUT if he is just "standing" around a person can touch him on his back and body no problemm, it is just if he is in a stand stay that we have the issue. Thanks for all the suggestions for us to try! We'll let you know how it goes.

[DNeff]

Originally Posted by MontanaRott

Thanks Dawn! That seems so logical, and so simple. That is what makes this place so great. Lots of suggestions for things to try to conquer a problem. With Guerin we are thinking it is attitude more then a lack of confidence,

By confidence I am referring to his understanding of what is expected during the exercise, not that he is shy or afraid. Maybe I should have said once he is strong or fluent with the sit for exam exercise you can move on to stand for exam. He should be able to sit for exam with distractions, you at 10', etc... before the stand is introduced. That's all I meant.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by DNeff

By confidence I am referring to his understanding of what is expected during the exercise, not that he is shy or afraid. Maybe I should have said once he is strong or fluent with the sit for exam exercise you can move on to stand for exam. He should be able to sit for exam with distractions, you at 10', etc... before the stand is introduced. That's all I meant.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

Gotcha, but he very well could for whatever reason not have enough confidence to allow some one to touch him when he knows he is not supposed to move. But I think starting over at a sit, as you suggested, should work regardless of what his issue is. Thank you for suggesting that. I swear sometimes I feel like such a dunce. That just seems like the logical thing to do, go back to the BASICS!

[Judi W]

Most youngsters at that age have the problem of wanting to climb on the judge to say hello! Yes, you are seeing fearfullness and that is something you need to work on even away from the exercise, but he can learn to stand and that he will not die if someone touches him. I'm rather with Larry, although I probably would not cradle his whole self, but just stand beside him and put one hand at his flank to keep it in place and the other hand through his collar.

Spent about 3 hours working with a Turv last Saturday on this exact issue. Great dog for precision in the obedience work, but couldn't get past the stand for exam. Here is how we progressed from stage to stage.

1. Dog beside handler - sit or stand, doesn't matter. Approach with a happy hello, shake hands with handler and chat, do not look at dog. (had a couple of people to work with this). With no pressure, friendly message between people, dog settles.

2. Dog beside handler - sit or stand, person approaches, speaks to handler again without looking at dog, then passes by with just a brief touch to the top of dog's head in passing.

3. Handler puts dog in stand-stay, but only leaves to near the dog's head. Judge approaches, speaks to handler, does brief novice touch and moves on.

4. Handler puts dog in stand-stay and steps out to front (still near) with arms crossed (crossed arms indicates a firmer stay than hands at side)....... Dog moves - we go back a step.

Regardless of the step involved, person acting as judge should not look at dog but look "past" the dog. When it gets to stand-stay portion, no focus or looking at dog, business like approach, brief head, back, rear and move on. Also, it is important to always use the left hand. This does a couple of things for judge and dog. It keeps judge from looming over the dog and also, should you ever be examing a dog that is going to go for you they only access the left arm and not your face!

[MontanaRott]

LOL! Judi he USED to climb up to judges! I printed out your post and it is going to class with us. Thanks everyone for the feedback, we will let you know how it goes. I have full confidence with time and paitience this too shall pass!

[MontanaRott]

Judi I printed out your suggestions and Phil took them to class with him and by the end of class, Guerin was standing nicely for everyone in the class. And Guerin is flirting with the instructor again. Thanks for the help everyone. Now we wait and see what the next thing to twitter pate this boy is!
We are going to a Show and Go this weekend so we will know then where they are in their quest for that CD.

[MontanaRott]

Well a big THANK YOU to all who had feedback for us for the problem with the stand stay! We Incorporated a bit of each and SUCCESS! We have been practicing EVERYWHERE and yesterday went and practiced in Petsmart. Well the proof is in the pudding, we went to a Show and Go today and Phil took Guerin in the ring with the judge and he moved INTO the judge to say hello! Yes, big no no but, a huge step for the boy. So they did a few more stand stays and he was great. Stood still and grinned. No movement away or to the judge and no tensing of his body. The judge, after the boys did their second run through, said Guerin is there, and for them to keep up the good work and go for the CD this spring!!!!!! She said it was so obvious to her all the work Phil has put into this dog and he should be proud of what a NICE and well trained Rottweiler he has! She was AMAZED when Phil told her Guerin was just a year old and said the work that has been put into him really shows. This is a lady who has a Mal that is a finished Champion, has a UD and agility titles and a TD, so that coming from her was a real thrill.
Guerin even showed off his Bang trick to the delight of those present.
Many thanks go to all of you who are so willing to share your tips with those of us just getting going. So when he gets that CD this spring all of you can share in the accomplishment!

[Judi W]

I'm sure you are proud and thrilled! Mission accomplished! Now, that CD will be on its way. Congratulations and it is so very nice when someone actually follows suggestions. Makes it worth it.

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I'm sure you are proud and thrilled! Mission accomplished! Now, that CD will be on its way. Congratulations and it is so very nice when someone actually follows suggestions. Makes it worth it.

Oh we are both walking on cloud nine, more for the compliments on what a well trained boy he is, then for anything he accomplished today. We feel the burden of owning a rottweiler and making sure when we go somewhere with him, that people leave with the impression of what a nice dog they just saw and not oh another nasty rottweiler.
Judi your help has been invaluable. Thank you.