Jumping from A to Z by Chris Zink

[Miabella]

Has anyone read this book? Would you recommend it? How does it compare to Suzanne Clothier's Natural Jumping Method?

I have the Clothier book, and I'm thinking of purchasing Jumping A to Z, but I just wanted to know what people thought of it first. Thanks. :)

[DNeff]

I have read both books and worked both methods. I feel Chris Zink's method is a bit stronger than Suzanne Clothier's. That being said, both methods have merit and I know of people who have had success with both.

Currently on the Clean Run list there has been some talk of people who were not as satisfied with the Clothier method. Just an FYI..

IMO, and this is just me, Zink/Daniels teach a "thinking" jumper. Clothier teaches the dog a comfortable rhythm and what works best for that dog. However, some dogs never find their rhythm with the Clothier method, some dogs can "make it" without having to learn proper take-off point, propelling from the rear, etc... I think the overall learning in A to Z is a big more thorough and you end up with a slightly greater jumping skill set for your dog.

I would definitely recommend Jumping A to Z!

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
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[Miabella]

Originally Posted by DNeff

However, some dogs never find their rhythm with the Clothier method, some dogs can "make it" without having to learn proper take-off point, propelling from the rear

Yes! Those are exactly the things we need to develop. Doing some cavaletti in imitation of the Clothier method, but the whole jump chute she describes is a near impossibility due to the fact that I have no yard. I use a fenced schoolyard a couple blocks from my house, but there is no parking so I have to physically capable of carrying my jumps there.

I just ordered this book, thanks for the recommendation!

[BostonRott]

O, now you did it. Opened up a can of worms as big as "the forced vs. the motivational retreive." HAHAHAAA

I have both books. I like Zink's better. Clothier's is based on horse jumping, and horses are structurally different (less flexible) than dogs. Thus they need more rigidity in their jumping, meaning "you will do A when you encounter B." Dogs are able to turn their forearms (horses can't, bones are fused) and have a more flexible spine.......they are more adaptable to mis-judged conditions/turns/landings, etc.

Julie Daniels is an active participant up here in NE agility trials, she teaches in New Hampshire and I've spoken with her a good bit about jumping. I think teaching the dog to judge the jump, as well as how to use it's body is of utmost value.

I teach my dogs to be able to take a 24" jump at top speed, when they're running hard, and thus jumping a very flat arc, and they also must understand how to "pop" a jump, i.e. take off from a sitting position from right in front of the jump. They must understand how to land both jumps and continue forward, as well as land both jumps and wrap the jump standard (upright), without pulling the rail. Clothier's method works on finding the dog's "perfect stride length / take off point" whereas Zink/Daniels teaches a dog to read jumps/situations and adjust accordingly.....how to add a stride, or remove a stride, prior to take-off in order to keep the rail up. How to judge a triple, and have the top of the arc over the FIRST bar, not the final (highest) one.

I do a lot of work with jump chutes with various height bars, variable spacing, including full-speed chutes at 24" in which the dog must bounce the jumps. Certainly not optimal conditions, but of all the problems we've had in trials, rail-pulling is NOT one of them. If she does pull a rail, it's because I've done something incredibly stupid (and obvious) in my handling. Froli is continuously complimented on her fast and efficient jumping style. There's a reason she beats Border Collies.........it ain't all speed, it's also efficient jumping/course running. :D

We also work a lot on single jump skills (which Julie highly encourages, and Clothier doesn't even address), as well as jump circles, serpentines, threadles, etc. Jumping is THE most important part of agility, simply because it comprises the vast majority of every course. Obviously poor contacts are the bane of many standard runs, but without jumping, you have no agility. :D

[Judi W]

and.......
If you are talking obedience jumping instead of just agility jumping, I always point out to people that unless they can guarantee that their dumbell is going to land exactly a specified distance from the jump (they can't), they'd better teach the dog to adjust to different approach distances. It is my belief and has been my experience, that a properly constructed dog does this with ease so long as the distance is not so short that there is not room for decent approach. With a proper distance, the dog will take strides and adjust the last one appropriately for the distance. It is the dogs with structural problems that need the most help and that is another discussion of a philosophical nature.

[BostonRott]

Completely agree Judi!!!!!!!

Frol never really had to "learn" to jump (and neither do her two daughters who are currently terrorizing their old mum), so much as she needs to learn to commit to the jump, finish the action, and then pay attention to her clumsy handler.

Vikka is also very well put together and a VERY natural jumper. Her issue has been respect for the bars. Vikka has no respect for her own body (high pain tolerance, doesn't really care what happens to her......I stepped on her tail when she was a pup, with my full weight, she never even budged), and thus doesn't care if she plows a rail.......sometimes "through" the jump is the fastest way! ;) But we're getting past that too.

Most of the people that I train with seem to follow Zink more than they follow Clothier.

[Miabella]

Not aware of any big structural problems here, hips & elbows OK, pretty good front & rear angulation. The only thing is Ilsa is a little long in the back, I haven't done the measurements but I'd say she's a bit longer than the desired 9:10 ratio.

[Judi W]

Most common errors I have seen in teaching jumping.

Starting out too low. If the jumping is started out at 12 inches or so, the dog never learns to put energy into the approach. Jump should always, even in the beginning, be high enough that it requires a bit of energy.

Positioning too close. If a dog is refusing the jump, instead of evaluating why (usually structural or vision) handler thinks to solve the problem by positioning close thinking the dog is less likely to go around the jump. Of course that is not true. By being too close you remove the dog's option of learning to adapt its stride and judgement making it even more difficult for the dog. In the case of distance from the jumps - more is better.

[Miabella]

I'm giving her about 15 feet of take off space, so I think we are OK on that point.

She hasn't shown any unwillingness to jump, she is actually a little overeager most of the time. Her big problem can be summed up by saying she blunders in too close and then pops it. She doesn't seem to understand where to take-off and she also throws her front end over. I want to teach her to take off correctly and use her hind end more, which I know she is capable of since she can launch herself vertically when playing with a toy.

[Bucky's Mom]

I have NO clue - but I was going to suggest driving to a lighted tennis court for practice - they are fully enclosed - parking nearby - and lit at night even in the winter - as cold as it has been I'll bet they are deserted. - There are a LOT of them in Montgomery County - you can call MD National Capitol Parks and Recreation in Silver Spring (301/445-4500) to find out which ones are lit now - hope this helps

[DNeff]

Riven has had a huge problem with jumping, and I have worked with several experts on jumping to help correct much of it. There are lots of great techniques out there to help.

Is this the high jump you are working with? Does she stutter step at all before the jump (seems to take several small steps just before taking off)?

Kathy Keats taught me an awesome way to work on propelling from the rear. However it's very very hard to explain over the net. Perhaps if I get ambitious I will take a few photos and write up the explanation.

The Zink book discusses using a ground bar in front of the jump to help the dog learn where to take off from to get over the jump. Keats uses a bar set one end on the ground (about 12" from the jump) and the other end up against one upright to keep the dog further off the jump.

Zink recommends putting corn starch on the ground and walking your dog through it, thus putting white on their feet, which helps you see footsteps. Let your dog jump and then evaluate where the feet were for the take off, landing etc... Her book goes in to optimum take off spot, where they should land etc... Also videotaping will really help you "see" what she is truly doing.

Kathy Keats does an abbreviated jump chute of just four - five jumps. It has really helped Riven out. Let me get my notes together tonight/this weekend and I will see if I can post all the Kathy Keats info on chutes and rear propulsion.

Dawn + Osa
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC OAJ NA TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Miabella]

Hi Dawn,

Thanks for your input! She doesn't really stutter step, although sometimes she will chip in, if you are familiar with that term from the horse world.

Our jumping problems are limited to the high jump, she is able to do her full width (48 inches) on the broad jump without any problems. When I first started teaching her the broad jump, she did tend to misjudge and step on the front board, but after standing the front board on its side for about a month, she stopped doing that.

This morning, I got up early and went over to Home Depot. This afternoon, I built myself 5 more jumps of my own design. They aren't quite as sturdy as the other ones I buillt from plans on the internet, but they will be easier to carry and thus more practical. I'm ready to start over from the beginning on this, whatever it takes. I don't believe in quick fixes, so I'm ready for some work. :) :) :)

[Rottlva]

Laurie, would you be able to give me the link for the jump plans you found over the internet? Thanks.

[Miabella]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

Laurie, would you be able to give me the link for the jump plans you found over the internet? Thanks.

These are the ones I made originally: http://www.hickorytech.net/~chchiud/obedequi.htm

The high and bar jumps are made from 1.5 inch PVC pipe, and they are really HEAVY and awkward to carry any distance, but they are quite nice if you can just keep them in your yard. I used 1/2" PVC to make jumps today; they are much lighter, but probably not as durable.

I also made the broad jump from that site, and it came out great and I love it.

[Rottlva]

Originally Posted by Miabella

These are the ones I made originally: http://www.hickorytech.net/~chchiud/obedequi.htm

.

Excellent!! I've been teetering over buying the set from J and J, I just couldn't bear to pay the price. I see this woman also makes scent articles.... what an ambitious woman!! :)