Ended e collar lesson - right or wrong?

[JeanT]

In my continuing bumbling attempts to find training for Cody (approx 1yr olf M, now neutered, owner turn-in to a shelter, very even temperment, now healthy and very well conditioned), I most recently have used a team of 2 K-9 policeman, #1 who very recently retired at the 25 yr service period, #2 currently active.

#1 started the business. I almost cancelled the first lesson because he said to me so many times that Rottweilers are big powerful dogs who need very hard leash corrections or they would become out-of-control dangerous dogs. He would not acknowledge my statements that Cody was very responsive, jsut not trained. Anyway, the training was to be in my presence, he said that there would be no negatives other than the leash corrections, and lots of praise. He also said he wanted to use an e collar, but I said "no".

First lesson, leash corrections did not have to be nearly as hard as he anticipated (though he would never acknowledge that). It was almost exclusively heeling, he wanted to have me watch only. I wasn't impressed, but Cody wasn't being hurt so I scheduled another lesson.

#2 came for the second and third lessons. Cody respnded very well to him, minimal corrections, bouncing and strutting (both of them) and generally having a good time. I worked Cody a bit and it was OK.

Next three lessons were with #1 but I stuck it out waiting for #2. Cody was not doing well for #1 and the frustration of #1 was evident. Cody did much better for me. #1 kept saying I should allow him to use the e collar and that I was delaying Cody's progress by denying it.

Next 2 lessons were with #2 only, and again Cody was doing quite well, for me, too. #2 wanted to use the e collar. I agreed to his using it. He used it for corrections, on a low setting. One mistake - on an enthusiatic recall, Cody saw another dog and charged past me. I could see that he was going to go past me, too, and #2 gave him a pretty hard zap, but it was just as Cody got to me, not just past me. It did not stop the charge, but Cody thought it was because he was coming to me, and his next recalls were very slow and tentative. (Cody is OK now, fortunately he is a very resilient dog.)

Both #1 and #2 went to a Fred Hassen seminar and are now total converts to total off-leash e collar training.

I went to my first (and last) post-Hassen seminar lesson. #2 took Cody on a long line and started the "come, come, come" stuff with the continual zapping. This is supposed to be a positive training method because The dog is never told "no", he's just zapped until he does what he's supposed to.

I believe #2 who said he had the transmitter on a very low setting. (I wouldn't have believed #1.) So, I do not believe that Cody was being phsycially hurt. However, Cody's response was to start looking frantic and then turn to try to run to me, getting zapped all the while. I yelled to stop and walked quickly toward Cody, who crawled on his belly to me the rest of the way and stayed flattened to the ground.

#1 angrily started a lecture about how I am turning Cody into a wuss and allowing him to end the lesson by crawling on his belly was simply reinforcing his obstinate behavior. And again that I would have a dangerous and untrained powerful dog doing bad things in the world. #2 was not nearly so agressive, but he clearly is a convert. I did not point out to #2 that this is the same dog who happily bounced through his lessons with him without the Hassen method.

My questions:

1) Was I wrong to stop the lesson based on Cody's response, even though I would agree with #2 that there was probably not even as much phsyical pain as a hard leash correction?

2) Though I would never admit it to #1, I wonder if I am over protective of Cody. I feel that he is a lot more sensitive (responsive) than the impression his size and strength give "strangers" . Can I turn him into a "wuss"? I feel that he is a confident, friendly, pet level Rottweiler, not a PP or ScH level which I think is awesome but well beyond my abilities).

[excellrott]

Run, like your dog wanted to and get to a place where there are no policemen with seminars!!!! for e-collars

[cucciolone]

I am probably as far from an expert as you can get, so I may have no right to post about technical matters such as these, but your post hit a nerve with me. We have also had more than our fair share of negative experiences with trainers. I really empathize with you and your dog. I know what it's like to be in the hands of people in whom you have faltering confidence, I know the "which trainer will I get today- they nice one or the jackass?" questions, the feelings that your wishes are being discounted and that you have little control over what goes on. I think that you absolutely did the right thing in walking away.

As I understand it, the ecollar is a highly effective tool in the right hands. But what happened to the principle, if #1 and #2 ever embraced it, that a dog should not be corrected until the behavior is truly learned? What you described of their rendition of the recall exercise made me feel ill. It sounds to me like your dog was totally bewildered. Maybe doing a search on Mick Trainer's mentions of "learned helplessness" would be helpful.

In what way is concern for your dog's welfare "turning him into a wuss"? What could possibly be positive about having a dog so confused that he crawls on his belly? Most likely trainer #1 was annoyed that you didn't fawn and gush over his training prowess, and rush out to refer everyone you know to his field.

[Judi W]

Well, Jean, in my opinion, if you won't stick up for your dog, you don't deserve to have him. I'd say you delayed a bit but at least you got there.

Being a K9 handler does not make someone a trainer. They are two entirely different things and these guys are trying to capitalize on their K9 designations as a business opportunity. I know several K9 handlers and they are not trainers and don't pretend to be. I also know one who is a trainer and trains and titles his own dogs. He does not train department dogs and I'm sure these guys don't either.

Next time you talk to a trainer ask them about their personal dogs and what titles they have put on them.

[JeanT]

Thank you for your comments.

#2 trains other K-9s and trials his own dog. I think pre-Hassen he was doing a good job. He really engaged Cody. The recall exercise was pre-Hassen. He also recognized that he had hit the button a little too soon. I should clarify that the recalls after that, in that lesson, he did not use the transmitter. He recognized that Cody's hesitency was from the bad timing. I think Cody blew through the strong zap because he did not recognize that the "correction" was for heading for the other dog (in a friendly way - he's very dog friendly). The mistaken timing of it said to me (and I think from Cody's reluctant recalls after), that he was being corrected for coming to me.

Near the end of that lesson Cody got a few zap corrections on a heel (I believe that it was again low power) and he tured in circles looking around and lay down and stayed down. I did not say it, but I was concerned that this was confusion at least. If there is confusion, there is not learning.

Today's lesson, #2 did not say what he thought of the belly crawling. However, he did talk about how excellent the Hassen mthod is. At least now, he is blinded by Hassen. I'm afraid it will only get worse since both are going to a 3 week training session is Las Vegas.

I too THINK that there could be merit in an e collar, but I have no idea how one (a real trainer) learns how it is used effectively and humanely. I am sure that timing must be one critical aspect. Also, it may not be right for every dog, even in the hands of an expert. If so, I think a real expert would also know that, too.

Until Cody, I had no idea how difficult it would be to find a real and humane trainer.

[lblax]

i agree with judi on this one but i would like to add that an ecollar is a very good training tool when used correctly and also any kind of training session must end on a good note even if it your fault or due to outside stimulation(ecollar) or whatever you just cant let your dog lay down quit and then take him off the feild you must through play or smaller stimulas work through this on a good note with your dog completing the task that was ask of him this way he learns that even though he experianced unplessent stimulas he still came through with the task and got praised... by just pulling him off the feild when he layed down and quit because of the ecollar he will learn very quickly that if i go into avoidance momma will get me out of there......... go back to motivational training and re introduce the ecollar later with a good trainer timing is everything when using a e collar. i might add that while i know many great police handlers the few times that i have witnessed police training(not actually training) it was some of theworst sessions i have ever seen in dog training

[JeanT]

JudiW, my post was before I read yours. Yes, I agree at least #1 is capitalizing on his title. He handled his own dog but was not a "trainer". There was a world of difference between the two in how they handled Cody and what he gave them back. If #2 had not been at the second lesson, I wouldn't have continued because it would have gone nowhere.

I can't say if the Hassen seminar hadn't happened whether I would have tried one more lesson with #2 with the e collar. I know that I saw again what I thought was confusion and fear before Cody tried to bolt and started crawling back to me. I don't think #2 and Cody traveled more than 20 feet before I yelled to stop, before he even tried to bolt.

[JeanT]

Larry, yes, I walked Cody off the field after the "recall" lesson and gave him lots of praise for nice walking. Probably late, but he got it. And I didn't even try the recall with him for a day, just fun things and things he did well. He's back to doing a bounding recall.

#1 was berating me for "supporting his avoidence" by stopping the lesson. Not that he even knew those terms - after all, he says this is positive training.

I'll work more with Cody, of course, including leash corrections. I'll read the thread on learned helplessness to see if there is something else to do.

I was somewhat leery of "police" training. I will say that pre-Hassen, on the "traditional" training, #2 used tons of praise and fair corrections. I think he was REALLY having fun with Cody then. Cody sure seemed to be having fun with him, too.

[lblax]

Originally posted by JeanT
Larry, yes, I walked Cody off the field after the "recall" lesson and gave him lots of praise for nice walking. Probably late, but he got it. And I didn't even try the recall with him for a day, just fun things and things he did well. He's back to doing a bounding recall.

.

the problem here is he went into avoidance on the recall so that is what you should have worked through on the feild before you took him off ....you needed to get one good recall even if it took an hour or you had to nail a tbone steak to your forehead.... what he learned was the next time he doesnt want to come he can avoid it and still get praise for another task.

[flyballmom]

Oh my God. 3 obedience lessons and the bozos are ready to use an e-collar? I'm not a huge believer in them, although I did use one on my Jagdterrier for dog aggression issues. It didn't work. Most importantly, the dog has to understand what it's supposed to do 1st. The analogy I like is...it's your very 1st lesson in learning to speak Russian. The teacher walks into the room and starts giving instructions...in Russian. You don't understand, so don't follow them. The teacher gives you a shock for disobeying. You have no idea what you did wrong...you did the right thing by getting your dog outta there.

[MARYDVM]

Training methods should be molded to fit individual dogs, dogs should not be molded to fit a single training theory. Fast recalls were around long before e-collars were.

[JeanT]

Larry, :( Once again I am fortunate that Cody bounced back.

I also realize that I didn't make today's "lesson" clear... The "come, come, come" thing today was supposed to replace the heel command. It wasn't recall. This apparently is from the seminar. The dog is to walk beside you off leash (strict heel or not, I couldn't tell, Cody wasn't the only one who was confused). Cody did start trotting off with #2, which is what he was supposed to do, and #2 started "come, come, come" and zapping. I don't know why the zapping - was Cody lagging a bit? I don't understand - he was going with #2 even even though he wan't told to heel. He liked #2 and I think he (Cody) started off along the lines of a "let's go" (the words weren't used) but then he got "come, come, come" and the zapping.

Pre-seminar, the collar was used as a correction by these guys. Post-seminar, it's not for corrections, it's to motivate the dog to offer behaviors until it hits on the right one to stop the zapping. I guess that's not a correction since the dog doesn't know what it's supposed to do.

I keep learning so much on this forum... but I still want to find the right trainer because I think we would progress more quickly and surely that way. By "quickly" I mean that Cody is so trainable that if I knew what I were doing, he would easily have the basics down pat in the presence of distractions.

[Storm]

Haven't read the other posts, but must say that firstly I do not believe that electric should be used for the developmentel stages of training, a little off topic, secondly your interaction and basics should be in place purely through motivational training where the dogs desire to interact is worked on. If you don't have this then all you can resort to is compulsion and at the end of the day very unhappy, unwilling dog. Dogs need a certain temperament, level of handler dog interaction, which has been developed and a foundation which is positive through which all various actions/commands have been imprinted and reinforced whilst through all this maintaining good attitude. Now when we create problems, normally unknowingly, then there is the corrective area in order to get things back on track again, but the corrective side is not to put the dog in a hole but rather to redirect the dog positively into a desired behavior. My point? How much of the basics have you addressed? How much and what type of foundation is in place? How clear is the dog's head? Is the dog truly proficient enough to handle any sort of correction and able to process it through having a clear understanding of why there is correction? There is nothing more damaging then applying correction and the dog is in a grey area where sure to the human anology it seems so clear and simple yet to the dog he can not process or understand the correction and respond correctly to alleviate the pressure etc. I believe in electric, I use it myself BUT, it is not a magic wand, there to zap what to the human mind seems correct, as usually incorrect. We so many times fall so short in the obedience aspect, we are incosistent, we are confused, we are so lacking yet we expect perfect clarity from our dogs, our dog's performance and clarity is a direct reflection of the imprinting from the person who handles, trains or owns the dog. So we must always ask ourselves and be aware that in many instances everything our dogs do has been allowed, created, reinforced somewhere down the line, by us! I wouldn't allow someone to handle my dog. But that's me.

[poohbearsmom]

I think there's a time and a place for e collars. I completely agree with Iblax and Storm, a good foundation should be built upon before using the ecollar. That being said, I also believe there's definitely a right and wrong way to use them.

Question for those "in the know"... should you even use an e collar on a dog, if he's in the vicinity of another dog... could this not trigger dog on dog aggression?

Well, Jean, in my opinion, if you won't stick up for your dog, you don't deserve to have him. I'd say you delayed a bit but at least you got there.

I concur with Judi, I've made the mistake myself of not grabbing my dog when "someone knowledgable" put him in a position he did not deserve to be in.. I'm lucky my dog still talks to me.. Very lucky. I really beat myself up over that one. It won't happen again. ;)

Training should be tailored to suit the individual dog. Sounds like #1 has met some pretty grumpy rotties in his career. Poop on that. Every dog is different, and, IMHO, training should be tailored to getting the best results, while building the confidence, managability and control of the dog.

My 2 cents.

[lblax]

Originally posted by poohbearsmom
Question for those "in the know"... should you even use an e collar on a dog, if he's in the vicinity of another dog... could this not trigger dog on dog aggression?




My 2 cents.

i dont believe that just because another dog is near it would trigger dog aggression but i have seen it tried to stop dog aggression and it usually only pumps them up and makes the situation worse...