Ended e collar lesson - right or wrong?

[poohbearsmom]

Thanks, Larry... that makes a lot of sense.

[JeanT]

Pooh, #1 had only had one Rottweiler starting training when he took on Cody. His attitude was not based on actual experience with them. Because Cody dragged him around almost as much as Cody at times drags me, it only reinforced his attitude that Rottweilers are powerful, obstinate creatures. #2 liked Cody right away and vice versa, and responded to him.

Unfortunately, #1 was crowing about how they've now got 10 Rottweilers in training. I do not think #1 will ever understand how individual dogs of all breeds are.

[poohbearsmom]

Sounds like if #2 got the hell away from #1, you and #2 could get some dog training done... :)

[UnclLou]

JeanT wrote: In my continuing bumbling attempts to find training for Cody (approx 1yr olf M, now neutered, owner turn-in to a shelter, very even temperment, now healthy and very well conditioned), I most recently have used a team of 2 K-9 policeman, #1 who very recently retired at the 25 yr service period, #2 currently active.

LC: Being a police K-9 handler give people lots of expertise, but not always in the field of training pet dogs. Many handlers never learn to do anything but handle their own dog.

JeanT wrote: #1 started the business. I almost cancelled the first lesson because he said to me so many times that Rottweilers are big powerful dogs who need very hard leash corrections or they would become out-of-control dangerous dogs.

LC: Anyone who makes such a blanket statement about ALL dogs of any breed needs to be watched carefully.

JeanT wrote: First lesson, leash corrections did not have to be nearly as hard as he anticipated.

LC: This should have been a clue to him.

JeanT wrote: One mistake - on an enthusiatic recall, Cody saw another dog and charged past me. I could see that he was going to go past me, too, and #2 gave him a pretty hard zap, but it was just as Cody got to me, not just past me. It did not stop the charge, but Cody thought it was because he was coming to me, and his next recalls were very slow and tentative.

LC: This should have been another clue.

JeanT wrote: Both #1 and #2 went to a Fred Hassen seminar and are now total converts to total off-leash e collar training.

LC: There's nothing wrong with "total off–leash Ecollar training. It's how the tool is applied. Don't blame the tool because some people abuse, or don't know how to use it.

JeanT wrote: I went to my first (and last) post-Hassen seminar lesson. #2 took Cody on a long line and started the "come, come, come" stuff with the continual zapping. This is supposed to be a positive training method because The dog is never told "no", he's just zapped until he does what he's supposed to.

LC: This is hardly "positive training."

JeanT wrote: My questions: 1) Was I wrong to stop the lesson based on Cody's response, even though I would agree with #2 that there was probably not even as much phsyical pain as a hard leash correction?

LC: How much pain you perceive your dog is getting shouldn't be the measure of how good or bad the lesson was. It's how the dog is responding to the method that's important. I think you were right to end the lesson.

Excellrott wrote: Run, like your dog wanted to and get to a place where there are no policemen with seminars!!!! for e-collars

LC: Don't blame the profession for the antics of a couple of people who are working outside their limitations.

Cucciolone wrote: I am probably as far from an expert as you can get, so I may have no right to post about technical matters such as these

LC: I don't think you need to be an "expert" whatever that is, to be able to see when a dog is being abused, or at least is not responding well to training .

Cucciolone wrote: As I understand it, the ecollar is a highly effective tool in the right hands. But what happened to the principle, if #1 and #2 ever embraced it, that a dog should not be corrected until the behavior is truly learned?

LC: I think this depends on your definition of "correction." But that's another discussion. I regularly use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors and stim the dog before he knows what the command means. But I'm working at a level where the dog just feels the stim.

Judi W wrote: Next time you talk to a trainer ask them about their personal dogs and what titles they have put on them.

LC: I agree complete with what you said about handlers not being trainers. But, especially for those doing police dog training, titles have little or no meaning. I've competed on the street for over 20 years and don't have a single title to my name. Accumulating points never appealed to me after the rush of chasing real criminals with real guns who have committed real crimes. I'm certainly not knocking people who compete in the sports but having a title does not guarantee a good trainer.

JeanT wrote: He recognized that Cody's hesitency was from the bad timing.

LC: I think it was a combination of bad timing and the stim level being too high.

JeanT wrote: Near the end of that lesson Cody got a few zap corrections on a heel (I believe that it was again low power) and he tured in circles looking around and lay down and stayed down.

LC: Some dogs will relate stims they get after a high level one to that stim, even though the stim being given now is not near the level of the previous, high one.

JeanT wrote: I have no idea how one (a real trainer) learns how it is used effectively and humanely. I am sure that timing must be one critical aspect. Also, it may not be right for every dog, even in the hands of an expert. If so, I think a real expert would also know that, too.

LC: I've trained hundreds of people to use the tool properly. It's easier to learn than it is to use a leash and correction collar. The timing isn't critical any more or less than it is with other training methods. I've written an article called "The Myth of Perfect Timing" that you can read on the ???????? Forum.

Perhaps you could print your article in a thread here. ???????? doesn't allow links to their site.

LC: I've not found a dog that the Ecollar didn't work quite well for.

JeanT wrote: Until Cody, I had no idea how difficult it would be to find a real and humane trainer.

LC: It's not all that difficult. You just happened to come across a couple of people who were working above their level.

Flyballmom wrote: Oh my God. 3 obedience lessons and the bozos are ready to use an e-collar? I'm not a huge believer in them, although I did use one on my Jagdterrier for dog aggression issues. It didn't work. Most importantly, the dog has to understand what it's supposed to do 1st.

LC: I usually start a dog with an Ecollar on the very first lesson, if he's an adult. It's not the tool, it's how it's used. But that's true of any tool isn't it? It's simply a matter of making the dog uncomfortable, guiding him into the proper behavior and then making him comfortable again.

MARYDVM wrote: Training methods should be molded to fit individual dogs, dogs should not be molded to fit a single training theory. Fast recalls were around long before e-collars were.

LC: So true. People were training dogs for thousands of years before Ecollars came along. But again, this problem is the result of poor training, not a poor tool.

JeanT wrote: Pre-seminar, the collar was used as a correction by these guys. Post-seminar, it's not for corrections, it's to motivate the dog to offer behaviors until it hits on the right one to stop the zapping. I guess that's not a correction since the dog doesn't know what it's supposed to do.

LC: That's kind of a twisted definition of "correction" but it allows them to work. Such mis–definitions are typical of the trainer that they learned from.

LC: If you're in the Las Vegas area I'd suggest Jim Crawford.

LC: Here are some article I've written on Ecollar training. They're on Linda Guidry's website (mine is under construction). You'll find that they make sense, they're extremely gentle to the dogs and they work.

http://www.finographics.com/schutzhu...ollarwork.html

Storm wrote: . . . must say that firstly I do not believe that electric should be used for the developmentel stages of training

LC: I'll disagree. With the right method of using the tool, it's great for that.

Poohbearsmom wrote: I also believe there's definitely a right and wrong way to use them.

LC: This is one of those statements that applies to ALL training tools.

Poohbearsmom wrote: Question for those "in the know"... should you even use an e collar on a dog, if he's in the vicinity of another dog... could this not trigger dog on dog aggression?

LC: In the link to my articles there's one that discusses how to use the Ecollar to stop dog to dog aggression. If you use the tool in the conventional manner, zapping the dog at a high level when he shows aggression, you're liable to make the problem worse, not better.

LC: I'm sorry for the length of this. My "spies" didn't report this thread to me until this morning.

[JeanT]

Pooh, #2 did one time comment that he and #1 did not agree on a lot of things. To me it is clear that #1 has #2 because #2 is the one who has training ability. #2 also definitely "heard" from me the contradiction between claiming that the "Hassen mthod" is positive yet getting the correct response is actually the dog's way of avoiding the negative ("correction") of the zapping. (Don't know if my terminology is quite right, but it's my way of describing the concepts.) He didn't say anything but I could see him processing it - right now he just thinks Hassen is the answer to everything. One reason he thinks that is because Hassen used his dog (who recently placed very high in the K-9 nationals) and got a perfect respnse to something the dog had not been perfect on, and now #2's dog has total focus on #2 for whatever it is that #2 wanted. Sounds to me like #2's highly trained dog got a correction for a learned behavior, but what do I know, Hassen doesn't use the ecollar for corrections.

I'm going to send a payment to these guys with a letter explaining some of my thoughts in my way. (#1 was complaining that I wasted their time coming for the last lesson - he also told me the day before that now that they have the new ecollar method, they will be training the dogs total obedience in five lessons instead of ten, so they will be raising their rates. He will also sell the ecollar to every client.) The real purpose of the letter will be to raise some questions in #2's mind so he won't blindly follow Hassen.

LC - thank you for your respnse - it wasn't too long at all! I wondered if Cody's response to the "heel" corrections was somehow related to the earlier big zap. It was at the end of the lesson (both in time and also the phsycial place they were going to) when he lay down. Both #1 and #2 thought he was tired. I did not think so, because he's in great shape. I thought it was "mental" exhaustion.

The post-Hassen lesson yesterday was about ten days after the "recall" lesson. I wondered if, in addition to the confusion of "come" now being supposed to mean "heel", the response to zapping was even worse because of the previous exposure. Sort of like, if you get hives as an allergic reaction to penicillin, your body's response to another exposure will be worse and could even be full-blown anapylactic shock.

I'm now going to read your articles.

[cucciolone]

Originally posted by JeanT
I'm going to send a payment to these guys with a letter explaining some of my thoughts in my way. (#1 was complaining that I wasted their time coming for the last lesson - he also told me the day before that now that they have the new ecollar method, they will be training the dogs total obedience in five lessons instead of ten, so they will be raising their rates.

YOU are wasting HIS time with your perfectly valid concerns for your dog's wellbeing?

And he claims to be capable of taking a dog from zero to total obedience in 5 sessions?

And he's rude, arrogant, dismissive, biased, AND he's raising his rates?

[alexav]

Just my $00.02....

RUN, don't walk from ANYONE using FRED HASSEN as a reference!

Here is my post from the "Las Vegas Obedience Trainers" thread...

Originally posted by alexav
FRED HASSEN....
I just did a search to see if this guy had ever been mentioned on the forums. Thank you rottnvegas, for setting the OP straight about this guy.
Now, I am asking for help in spreading the word about this cruel man.
He attended a protection seminar that I was enrolled in this past weekend and I am STILL in disbelief at what I witnessed.

IMO, this guy is a sadist and a control FREAK! He had a modified shock collar on his dog's penis! Then he proceeds to put this poor dog through this circus act nonsense making him run to a metal carrying case, sit on it, down on it, spin on it, get the decoy, no don't get the decoy, get the decoy, no, get something else now....OMG! This dog was SOOOO in conflict! It made me physically ill!
(Yes, I have this on video because even though I was seeing it with my own eyes, I didn't believe it and I wouldn't expect anyone else to take my word for it either.)

He really has people bamboozled into thinking that his "methods" are humane!

ANYONE who knows even a tiny amount about dog behavior should be able to see right through this guys abusive methods yet he stays in business profiting off of the ignorance that abounds. The same ignorance that keeps BYB's and puppy mills in business, I would guess.

"Sit means Sit"??? I think it should be more like...
JERK means JERK!!! (that is the G-rated version of what I REALLY think!)

[JeanT]

The payment ($40) was going to be with some sarcasm, obviously not because I think it's deserved. I was thinking that just a letter from me would be discarded as a disgruntled client. Maybe that's all it would be taken as anyway. I'll rethink that. I' was thinking that #2 would at least tuck away some questions in his mind about the "Hassen method". #1 probably wouldn't show the letter to #2, though.

[UnclLou]

JeanT wrote: One reason he thinks that is because Hassen used his dog (who recently placed very high in the K-9 nationals) and got a perfect respnse to something the dog had not been perfect on, and now #2's dog has total focus on #2 for whatever it is that #2 wanted.

LC: This "total focus" is one of the problems with the training from Hassen. While it's fine for pet dogs it's horrible for dogs that search for a living. Those dogs are, in an ideal world, 100% hunting animals, 100% focused on their job hunting for criminals or lost people. In a real world we need a slight focus on the handler so that they can be directed into areas that we want searched, so that he can be called back if needed and so that he can be rested when needed. But this method puts too much focus on the handler and can cause the dog to miss in difficult search problems.

LC: Many handlers who have never before had much control, or are lacking that "extra bit" that wins at competitions are happy that this method gives it to them. It's only later, when they find that there are problems in the real work, searching that they realize what they've done.

JeanT wrote: Sounds to me like #2's highly trained dog got a correction for a learned behavior, but what do I know, Hassen doesn't use the ecollar for corrections.

LC: He does but he has a twisted definition of "correction."

JeanT wrote: I wondered if Cody's response to the "heel" corrections was somehow related to the earlier big zap. It was at the end of the lesson (both in time and also the phsycial place they were going to) when he lay down. Both #1 and #2 thought he was tired. I did not think so, because he's in great shape. I thought it was "mental" exhaustion.

LC: Followers of that method will make all sorts of excuses for their failures.

JeanT wrote: The post-Hassen lesson yesterday was about ten days after the "recall" lesson. I wondered if, in addition to the confusion of "come" now being supposed to mean "heel", the response to zapping was even worse because of the previous exposure. Sort of like, if you get hives as an allergic reaction to penicillin, your body's response to another exposure will be worse and could even be full-blown anapylactic shock.

LC: it will take only a short time for your dog to get out of the "overstimmed mode" that he's in. I ran a workshop a while ago for crittering (which is the same protocol as for dog to dog aggression) and had one dog that gave a HUGE reaction to a teeny stim. It was way out of proportion to the stim level that was being used. It turned out that the dog had just been to a snake–proofing clinic (where very high levels of stim are used) and was making the connection between the new stim at a low level and the old, very high level stim. It's simply a matter of letting the dog realize that the new stim isn't the same as the old stim. In this case it took about 3–5 minutes.

JeanT wrote: I'm now going to read your articles.

LC: YAY! Lol.

Cucciolone wrote: And he claims to be capable of taking a dog from zero to total obedience in 5 sessions?

LC: This is entirely possible but needs some clarification. I offer the same deal but usually people catch on to the theory themselves and don't need the full five lessons. It involves seeing the dog and handler 5 times about a week apart. In between the lessons with me the handler is supposed to work the dog every day. The first lesson is the recall which quickly morphs into loose leash walking or heel if the owner desires. The second lesson is sit, the third down, the fourth and fifth are any other behavior that the owner wants and also involves problem solving in the house. These can involve "place," stay off the furniture, don't bark at the UPS delivery person, etc.

Alexav wrote: RUN, don't walk from ANYONE using FRED HASSEN as a reference! Here is my post from the "Las Vegas Obedience Trainers" thread...

LC: LOL. Christy has seen Mr. Hassen at one of his seminars, and isn't sure how she feels about his training. ROFL.

[TrinityRun]

Originally posted by JeanT
One reason he thinks that is because Hassen used his dog (who recently placed very high in the K-9 nationals)

Which K9 nationals would that be?

[JeanT]

I didn't pay attention to the details (like the real name of the competition;) ) but it was in AC in , if I'm not too goofy about months, this October. It was for police service dogs. I forget where the top dog came from - I'm thinking out West, or was it Illinois? If the Atlantic City Recreation & Tourism Board hasn't updated its events calendar, maybe it will be there. I'll take a look. I do not doubt that there was the competition and that it had service dogs from all over the country.

[alexav]

Originally posted by UnclLou

LC: LOL. Christy has seen Mr. Hassen at one of his seminars, and isn't sure how she feels about his training. ROFL.

Sorry, UnclLou, but I have to correct you on this one...;) I have already seen enough of 2 Hassen disciples to know that I wouldn't waste a DIME on one of HIS seminars...That 3 week course for $5000.00 sure is tempting though...:p NOT!

Mr. Hassen attended a seminar given by Mark Rowe of PSA K-9. (Although he DID TRY to turn it into his own seminar ) I attended the same seminar and learned even more than I bargained for... Sometimes it sucks to be a "captive audience".

Mark MORE than made up for the negatives. He is FANTASTIC! All of our club dogs improve by leaps and bounds every time he visits!:D

[Storm]

Originally posted by UnclLou
Storm wrote: . . . must say that firstly I do not believe that electric should be used for the developmentel stages of training

LC: I'll disagree. With the right method of using the tool, it's great for that.

You have "spies"???????????????;) Depends what your definition of "development" is? If I take a 7 week old puppy and start developing food drive for instance, I am developing this drive and creating not only an association but also "attitude" utilising this as a tool for further development within the basics making it possible to teach positions and format commands with these various positions and also enabling the dog to learn how to hold positions purely through a positive outlook! By doing this I can achieve at a younger age and get in so much more work maintaing a very positive assoiciation with the work at hand. I will not use any form of discomfort whatsoever on a dog of this age and don't think anyone else should, discomfort has no place in the mind of such a young dog for that spicific task at hand.

Also.........................drive development, attitude and presence can't be developed and structured by stim alone! Suuuuure actions with commands but for some of us there is so much more that needs to be in place before eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeven thinking of discomfort at whatever level. This is a process of individuality, development, dog, drive, and maybe electric for some finer touches depending how good a trainer/handler you are and are able to develop a dog in conjunction with a bond, clarity and total focused clear channelling of not only drives but behaviors and if you are that good for various facets you don't even have to!

[Storm]

Originally posted by UnclLou
Cucciolone wrote: And he claims to be capable of taking a dog from zero to total obedience in 5 sessions?

LC: This is entirely possible but needs some clarification. I offer the same deal but usually people catch on to the theory themselves and don't need the full five lessons.

"Total Obedience" what a vague "thing". Once again, within what facet of training? What level of obedience? For what purpose? In conjunction with what other aspects? This statement sounds like "five sessions national or world level obedience" once again basic areas covered but don't conn yourself into thinking that this application produces a "world qualifier" in that time span with that approach.

[UnclLou]

Storm wrote: You have "spies"???????????????

LC: Sure doesn't everyone? I can't be everywhere so if a thread on Ecollars pops up people who know me know that I'll jump in. If I don't after a few posts they'll let me know via email that the discussion is going on. They know that it's because I haven't seen it. It's not like they're in your house or anything but we do want to know why you didn't make your bed this morning? LOL.

Storm wrote: Depends what your definition of "development" is?

LC: I was using the term to mean the early stages of training.

Storm wrote: If I take a 7 week old puppy and start developing food drive for instance,

LC: OIC. You're talking about "developing" drive or training in a very young dog.

Storm wrote: I am developing this drive and creating not only an association but also "attitude" utilising this as a tool for further development within the basics making it possible to teach positions and format commands with these various positions and also enabling the dog to learn how to hold positions purely through a positive outlook!

LC: There's nothing wrong with this. I do it too.

Storm wrote: I will not use any form of discomfort whatsoever on a dog of this age and don't think anyone else should, discomfort has no place in the mind of such a young dog for that spicific task at hand.

LC: The youngest that I've used an Ecollar on a dog is ten months. But I think that we have a basic difference on this. I don't think that the discomfort would be associated with the specific task, for example, holding or doing a down. Instead it will be associated with the BREAKING of the down or failing to perform it.