Schutzhund protection question

[Wrath]

Someone correct me on this as I have very limited experience with Schtuzhund and have been trying to grasp the purpose of this particular portion of the sport.

Is the whole point of the bite work on the sleeve to channel the dog's natural drives toward targetting the sleeve and not the person wearing it? In that sense, it's not really about training the dog to be agressive, it's more building confidence, focus, and control over the dog's primitive drives by training them under an intense but controlled situation. If the dog can be learn to control it's drives at your command during Schutzhund, than it should be easier to do the same during everyday occurances.

I've only seen one session in person (and a few short clips on TV here and there) but it seemed as if the dogs were very aware of the difference between the helper and the sleeve and indeed they seemed quite friendly to people, including the helper immediately coming off the field. I remember seeing one television program where the dog had gotten ahold of the sleeve and was happily trotting off with it where it plopped down a short distance away and started contently gnawing on the thing. It seemed identical to our dog's behavior with ropes or rawhide bones. One would think that if the training was for attacking people that getting the sleeve loose would give the dog a great opprotunity to really get a good hold on the target, but this particular dog seemed to have no interest in the person...they had already gotten the prize.

So what's the truth here, is it really about training the dog to be aggressive and attack people or is it more the opposite?

[Mick Trainer]

Wrath,

Schutzhund was developed as a selection critiira to create a service dog. The dog had too be able to be directable (obedient), be able to track and find someone (tracking) and to when it found them engage in a fight with them.

However with modern training techniques and with Schutzund becoming a sport trainers have found that they can minipulate the predatory drive of the dog to make the dog focus on the sleeve and too target the sleeve and not the person wearing the sleeve. Thsi was done firstly to get a more full calm bite but in more recent times has been done to put titles on a dog that would not previously been able to achieve this by making the dog not feel the threat that a person would create and make the dog see it is nothing more than a big tug of war game. If you like if the dog only sees the sleeve it does not worry about the man thus allowing a weaker nerved dog to achieve his/her Sch titles as it would back off if the person was to truly make direct threat with the dog.

The real downside too this is that in the end we will be allowing people to breed off dogs that have serious nerve definancies and no longer posses the derired characteristics of a working dog.

In it's truest form the dog is indeed meant to focus on the man and for me a Sch trained dog certainly should be able to take on a real life human threat if needed as well as being a high scoring dog and most of the truly great high level Sch dogs can. Not many dogs at the world chamionships have any trouble working away from the feild and with no equipment being present on the helper. Most of the top trainers understand that the dog that works in fight drive is clearer in the head and wil produce better scores than a purely prey orientated dog.

As too whether the dog is being trained too attack or not will depend on the trainer. But understand that it is more a test of the potential of the dog too be able to handle such training and such work as it is about teaching the dog to activly attack someone. Once again in Sch truest form the trainer does indeed wish for the dog to target the person and the sleeve is only present to protect the helper. If I work a dog too test it and it only will target the sleeve I will not breed it as it shows a weakeness within the dog that it may not posses the nerve and drive etc too make it a sound temperamented dog as it does not posses the nerve to target a person and thus too get it to title the trainer has had to cover these weaknesses by only training in prey making the dog comfortable in a situation that in real life it would not be. In the end the higher nerve systems of dogs bred from these dogs will be deminished and may so show more serious behavioral problems.

I remember seeing one television program where the dog had gotten ahold of the sleeve and was happily trotting off with it where it plopped down a short distance away and started contently gnawing on the thing. It seemed identical to our dog's behavior with ropes or rawhide bones. One would think that if the training was for attacking people that getting the sleeve loose would give the dog a great opprotunity to really get a good hold on the target, but this particular dog seemed to have no interest in the person...they had already gotten the prize.

This is prey training and depending on where the dog is upto in his/her training is a part of any training situation whether is be for sprot or for PP work, Police service work etc.

In that sense, it's not really about training the dog to be agressive, No one really is trying to train the dog to be aggressive. (The more you understand working dogs you will see this is not the case) but more where and when to use it's aggression. It is indeed about building confidence and adding control etc too that. Very few dogs will really have the courage to take on a human threat without training. Many will attack someone who is backing off, acting scared etc but few have the real nerve to take the fight toothe person without training. Add too this that the dog is taught when a where to use this aggression and by doing so you have lifted the confidence of the dog making it feel that what once was a threat is no longer a threat (as it's confidence increases the threshold to threat is raised . What doesn't kill you can only make you stronger) and the dog is taught when it can and when it can't go into its aggressive state.

If the dog can be learn to control it's drives at your command during Schutzhund, than it should be easier to do the same during everyday occurances.

Bingo. The dog is taught to control itself under a high level of duress. We have all heard about proofing a dog. One proofing technique is to expose a dog to higher levels of destraction, stress etc than it would normally find in it's life and when it learns to perfrom such tasks under this levels it will be able to perform the them under lower levels of stress. This thinking continues once again to all high level working dog training. PP, Police service etc.

indeed they seemed quite friendly to people, including the helper immediately coming off the field

This once again should be seen in any well trained working dog whether the dog is trained as I explained earlier by locking to dog in prey or whether the dog be a highly civil, active aggressive dog necessary for police service work. The general rule is that the harder and stronger the dog is the higher levels of stress he can halde before he becomes fear aggressive. Fear aggression is the least controlable, reliableand predictable aggression and makes the dog unsafe.

Further too this the theory is the stronger the dog the less likely it is too attack without provication and the less likely it is too attack a child etc. I have written a piece titled "defensive drive" which can be found in the archive sections of the forum. It will better explain where a dog goes into defensive drive and then when it shows avoidance. But in short the stronger a dog is in higher nerve systems levels the more pressure/threat it can handle before it becomes aggressive and the more pressure it can handle before it high tails and runs. The problem with the modern Rottweiler is that in less than 5% of cases posses the nerve levels that make them capable to handle a real life human threat. Many people would say who cares I dont want a guard dog? Which may make sence too them however a dog that is low in nerve may not be able to take on an adult human threat but such a dog can feel threatened by a child when it is backed into a corner but where it would have shown avoidance behaviors too an adult feels that it can beat or drive off this threat through aggression and before you know it a bite.

Further again a dog that has higher nerve levels hs a greater abiliy to calm down after being in a state of hgihtened emotion. So not only will the hgiher nerve threshold dog not only show unpredictable aggression at vastly hgiher levels than the lower nerved dog but it can calm down from the equivilant state much faster. These two factors combined is why so many of us who are into working dogs in a big way are so strong on our believe that these dogs must be worked and tested before they are worked.

Some would argue that we no longer need such training as we should not be using dogs for this purpose any more and that we should be breeding softer dogs. This is a reasonable arguement for most people. But many of us feel for this breed due too it's character strength etc and wish to keep the strength of the breed and see to do this we must firstly test the dogs that they posses this strength and make sure that such dogs are under control. Also is we seek to weaken our dogs we must also be prepared for the number of dogs that will come through with the strong defensive ability the dog has now combined with the weaker nerve that I spoke of. For me if people wish to greatly alter the breed I wish they would find another. If one wants a labrador they will be better too buy a labrador as the dog already posses the nerve necessary and the lack of defensiveness in the majority of cases.

In the end peope who understand working protection dogs see that in the vast majority of cases these dogs are not dangerous nor outwardly aggressive and that they are safe, friendly members of society who can perform a further task if necesary. A court in Victoria (where I life) found not only at ScH trained dogs not dangerous but that they are safer than dogs not trained for such. Sch, PP and service dogs are the only dogs trained not too attack. All other dogs are left too their instincts. In the industry there is a saying " that a natural guadian is a natural disaster". It refers too that a dog that is left too it's own devices as too who is and who is not a threat will invariably bite the wrong person as it makes the wrong decision here. I place my dogs under a great deal of stress with what I do as they often visit kindergartens and even work with autistic children. I will not do such work unless the dog has gone through a minimum of false attack work.

I hope that this helps a little. This is a hard area to come to come to terms with for most people. Keep learning, go and watch Sch, PP etc work and you will learn more about this topic. It took me a long time to get my head around it.

Mick.

[poohbearsmom]

Nice explanation, Mick!

:)

Thanks!

[Judi W]

I am in complete agreement with Mick on his assessment on where ScH has been and is. I also agree that a good strong-nerved dog is one of the safest dogs. I do not see what has been happening reversing however and especially with the conditions in Germany being what they are that even the sport has been renamed to be more politically acceptable.

Do not mistake a strong dog with a nasty dog although that can occur, it is usually the raising and training that is responsible. The truth is however, a dog that has little fear is little likely to feel threatened easily, is better at accessing threat. It is also true that a dog with correct temperament is not a dog for the novice and therein lies the rub.

[LynnS]

Judi and Mick

Thank you for that clear explanation...

[lblax]

by mick

In it's truest form the dog is indeed meant to focus on the man and for me a Sch trained dog certainly should be able to take on a real life human threat if needed as well as being a high scoring dog and most of the truly great high level Sch dogs can. N

in our club its not just a prey drive training the dogs are taught to target the sleeve but the must not just be sleeve happy while targeting the sleeve they must actually be focusing and fighting the man

[damp]

Some years ago we discussed loudly here, IF it was wise (or the opposite) to change our breed’s characteristics, in expense of “political correct breeding” (= watering down the breed) to avoid banning and still be able to own dogs called “Rottweilers”.

But all dogs CAN bite! (Especially the weak and shy dogs, as already explained so well in the above posts), but not all dogs can do bite work. That the big difference.

Bite work has nothing to do with making “attack dogs”, but it's about controlling the big amount of power and drives in our dogs. Where, when and what to bite, and for how long time. Even this takes years and many, many trainings hours, it’s easier to control such a dog, than it is to control a dog who bites by it's own decision and out of fear.

[Wrath]

Mick, thanks for the very insightful response. This is probably the best explanation of the philosophy behind the work I have been able to find and it's done a lot to help me understand what it's about. :)

[TopDawG]

copy pasted it here instead of the other thread to not derail it :D

(this relates too about 5% of Rottweilers)

Actually I'm glad you brought this up again as I was going to post in the other thread about this.

That's a fairly small percentage of the dogs (rotts) out there so most of us do not have a dog that has the confidence and courage to really excell in this type of work. How can you tell what side of the fence your dog is on?

Not to misquote you so plz correct me if I don't recall correctly but I beleive you said it last time as regards to Sch work and how trainers are now getting the dogs to focus more on the sleeve. While sch work was a test or display of a dogs abilities that by focusing on essentially a big game of tug o war, dogs without the nerve are still passing these tests.

Do you know if any of your dogs are in that 5% if they are not would you still train them on the sleeve?

~TD

[Mick Trainer]

I am not 100% sure what you are asking but will answer the way I think you meant the questions.

That's a fairly small percentage of the dogs It is a very small percentage of dogs are is far smaller now then when I starting training this sort of dog about 10 years ago.

so most of us do not have a dog that has the confidence and courage to really excell in this type of work Yes by the logic above it would be fair to say most do not have a dog that can perform real protection work. Even fewer have a dog that would excell at it.

How can you tell what side of the fence your dog is on? Have it tested by an experienced PP dog etc trainer. Most reputable PP etc trainers will be able access your dog for you and tell you whether it will be capable or not. One must be careful though as they may just be telling you what you want to hear too get you to pay to train your dog. Most however will not train a dog that they do not think it is capable of. AS too whether your dog would excell would take longer to truly access. I tell most people if I work their dog say about 6 times I will know what it is really capable of achieveing.

While sch work was a test or display of a dogs abilities that by focusing on essentially a big game of tug o war, dogs without the nerve are still passing these tests. This is correct.

Do you know if any of your dogs are in that 5% Personally in my back yard I have one male and three bitches. My male is a proven working dog (he is trained in PP work and has done security work), the eldest bitch is also a proven bitch. The next eldest is Dru who is about 3 and who dispite my best efforts does not have the genetics to make her capable of such work. She is thin nerved and although puts up a good front has no real courage to back her up and would fit sqarely in amounst the "not" capable 95%. My youngest bitch who is about 16 months old has only started this training (done about 7-8 sessions) and is showing Good to Very Good promise in this line of work. Time will tell how good she really is but it all looks promising.

Just to give you and idea her direct brother is one of the most natural dogs I have ever worked.

You must also remeber however I breed strongly for working dogs, from proven working lines with both parents always being strong working dogs which stackes the odds in my favour. But s you can see with Dru even then it goes wrong sometimes. Breeding for this sort of thing is not easy.

if they are not would you still train them on the sleeve?

Yes to a certin extent I would. Dru is a prime example of this. She is an extremely high driven dog with poor nerve, but by using her drive we can get her to bite a sleeve and look impressive. But for me it is just good fun and she really enjoys it. Remove the sleeve and she is as weak as water but with it there she looks OK. However I would never breed from her and I would never talk about her as anything else but what she is. Too many of the dogs I speak about get their titles so that they can breed even though it is clear that there is a genetic nerve weakness there. It is not the training I have a problem with but peoples use of such training. I am happy for people to train as such but just call it what it is.

Hope that this answers your questions.

Mick.