Prong collar BAD?

[RottiMomCT]

brianbat420 - my mother in law has a 125 pound headstrong male rottie. He is about 5-7 yrs old (rescue adoptee) and when he wants to, can pull you anywhere he wants to go.

I am 5' 7" and weigh a little more than he does - on a regular collar I would be flying behind him when we walked because he would pyll everywhere and it'd be hard to get footing to stop him (the idiot he was!). Through obedience training he has learned that pulling gets him nowhere except walking in circles and he doesn't like that.

I put a prong collar on him because the obedience training was not 'enforced' (only took him to basic training to satisfy the adoption requirement) and when I took him for walks (because nobody else did!) he yanked and walks were not enjoyable. ONE correction with the prong and he knew I wasn't gonna take his crap anymore. He and I used to have these 'battles of wills' when out walking and we both came home frustrated and often angry. I can now walk him on quite nicely with minimal effort in keeping him close to me. Much more enjoyable for both of us! He won't walk like that for my mother in law though - she doesn;t like the prong collar and would rather get dragged everywhere - so, she doesn't take him anywhere - sad, really...

As for the 'untraining' of bad habits - you are in for alot of work! A habit is easier to learn than unlearn. Your wife had better get on the ball with training whether she likes it or not. It is for the best - for the dog and for his owners.

Does he potty in his crate?? If so, the crate is too big - if he's not crated, the accidents are not his fault - they are your wifes for not taking him out enough and not enforcing his training routine.

Kepp 'reminding her' that she has to be the one to enforce the rules - the dogs life depends on it. If she allows him to get away with everything that could be very dangerous for everyone around him in the future when he starts to 'feel his oats' and reaches the 'teenage years' (about 16 months to 2 1/2 yrs of age)...

[Beckysmom]

I am in Korea right now and my wife and dog are in Phoenix. Now my wife isnt into training and do what is needed to be done. ... when I was there the potty thing was going great ... But now that my wife is slacking off on what she should be doing she tells me every day that she wakes up to accidents, ...
how do I break him from the habbits that he is learning right now? I dont want him to be 110 pounds and me try to tell him something and he just not listen of god forbid think that he is the alpha male and try to "correct" me...

I am in the air force and I am going to be going overseas to Japan in Oct and I need something that will ( for lack of a better word) keep him in is place because while on base he has to be the perfect dog one little mistake and it will be a bad thing.

Brianbat*:
I feel oddly cyber-connected to you and Rocky having been following his story since you were searching for names. That being the case I feel sad to read the above posts, and hope you will take seriously what I am about to say.

1) No dog is "perfect" --not ever.

2) Rocky will be aprox. 7 months old in October -- any expectation of "perfection" or even close thereto in a 7 month old rottweiler is utterly unreasonable. No matter what type of collar, no matter what type of training. It takes a superb trainer, working diligently, about 2 years minimum to get a dog fully trained, and even then it will be a fully trained dog, not a perfect dog.

3) You and wife in combo are not working diligently on training and are between you no doubt sending mixed messages to dog, and creating a situation likely to result in major problems up ahead.

4) It is you and your wife who need to shape up here, not the pup. The pup sounds like a normal pup doing his best for the age and stage he is at in extremely unfair "crazy making" circumstances. He can only learn what he is taught, and to expect more than he has been taught and sooner than any dog can reasonably learn what you want of yours even with the superb training that you and your wife are not giving puts the dog into a double bind. To then think of "enforcing" what has never been taught in the first place by use of any sort of aversive corrections is just plain wrong.

5) conclusion I say: either, radically change your attitudes, expectations, and get coordinated with your wife as a team and stick to consistent, fair, firm, fun training for the puppy and later dog as appropriate to his stage and age and level of attainement. Or rehome the puppy while he is easily rehomable.

You are being totally unfair in your expectations. And your expectations are utterly out of synch with the the level of effort being put in to raising and training this pup.

Kate

[Anne]

Well said Beckysmom. I was going to reply to this post but you have said it all. I hope your good advice will be heeded.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by brianbat420
Well I followed Mick's advise and it worked great and I was wondering how do I break him from the habbits that he is learning right now? I dont want him to be 110 pounds and me try to tell him something and he just not listen of god forbid think that he is the alpha male and try to "correct" me.

Whilst it is not the best that he learns all these bad things etc when you get back to a normal situation and can handle the dog again just start like he is a puppy teaching hi what you want. He wil be bigger etc but still wanting to learn and stil looking for leadership. Show him leadership by being patient, clear and consistant in your training and handling of him and you will have no troubles. It will be annoying, frustrating at times but just think of him as a big puppy and he will learn same as he would now.

Mick.

[lblax]

until you get to a point where your situation is solid and you can train consistantly then you cant expect much

[brianbat420]

QUOTE]2) Rocky will be aprox. 7 months old in October -- any expectation of "perfection" or even close thereto in a 7 month old rottweiler is utterly unreasonable[/quote]

I think that you have missunderstood me. I am talking about in the future about everything that I say, because I am not around my boy right now. As with everything else I dont not ,in any way, expect him to be perfect at such a young age. Believe me I have had dogs in the past, and even thought they have not been Rotties I know and understand that they are still puppies untill 3 years old LoL (especialy BOYS)
It is just that I tend to think very far in the future and I just REALLY dont want things to get out of control because he is going to be a big boy and I dont want to get in the situation where he thinks he is the big man and bites me or my wife.

And that brings me to another thing. My wife just told me that Rocky bit her pretty hard to day and that is something that I DO NOT WANT. And I know why, because She is living at home right now so that she is not so lonely and she has 4 brothers and of course boys and puppies what do they do, they want to play and they play kinda rough. The thing is I would like to be able to play with him also.

My question is: How do I get him to tell the difference when play time is and when realax time is?

I am sorry this may sound kinda dumb to some but like I said I have never had a dog that is going to be this large and I am just looking to the future to prevent the problem insted of corecting them when they come.[

[JeanT]

"You" don't get to teach him the difference between play time and relax time. You aren't there.

Your wife doesn't care enough about the puppy to housetrain him. She "isn't into training", "she's slacking off". Her complaints to you that he's making a mess have gone right over your head. So now she's telling you she lets her four brothers "rough house" with the dog, and she's been bitten "pretty hard".

Wake up: SHE DOES NOT WANT THE DOG.

Beckysmom is too polite.

[Beckysmom]

Brianbat*

I think you should read my thread that is titled something along the lines of "really BAD Bodhi morning" in which I describe how my dog, who was wearing a prong collar at the time, saw another dog and chased it causing me to turn into kite at end of leash and then crash to ground and then be dragged for a ways. This is with a difficult rescue dog, but I think that if your pup is not getting the training etc. he needs when he is there with wife and not you, that when you get back, even though you can start with him where he is as if he were a puppy and take it from the start, housetraining, everything, that will be essentially same as what I had to do with a rescue--and it does get more difficult when they get bigger and stronger.

I have relatives who are in military, United States State Department, US Labor attache, etc, and while it did not require quite the same level of comportment etc. that those required for my cousins, I travelled as child to foreign countries on an official US passport since my father was a United States Public Health Officer. I know very well that the level of manners etc. required of me and my cousins was higher than for a child in an ordinary family stateside. I think I understand quite well what you meant by the dog needing to behave "perfectly". Even if you are now trying to back pedal from that statement.

I cannot imagine that for your wife to be trying to handle the dog on base and have what happened to me with mine when I went flying the other day would be a good move for career advancement. Nor would you needing to look like you have the dog in control, but only via a method that looks like you need to be strongarming him etc. It may be that a head halter by age of 7 mos once in Japan would work for you, if used very carefully to not injure the dog, to keep dog with enough appearance of appropriate manners and control in public. But I see a serious problem here that goes much deeper than anything likely to be solved by a device like that.

I also can tell that you want and deeply care for this dog. But I agree with JeanT that it does not sound like your wife does. And that is a very serious problem.

I wrote to someone else on these forums that I thought rottie was inappropriate breed in their circumstances and mentioned that my State Department relatives have had a series of labrador retrievers, because they are a much easier dog to deal with, unlikely to present the many problems that a rottie is not only likely to present in the future, but is already presenting for you and your wife at present.

Even if you have had other dogs that is not itself sufficient to be considered a sufficiently experienced owner to handle and train a rottie. And while there are no doubt trainers in Japan, the reality is that you would probably end up needing to train the dog on your own, and from what you have written thus far, it appears abundantly clear to me that you do not have the experience and skills to do that. You should have had a track record of being able to train well and fully such other dogs before starting on a large difficult breed that should be for experienced owners only. But beyond that it appears clear to me that your wife is both a novice in her abilities, even if she too has had some other dog in her life, but also that can be overcome by someone who is eager and willing to jump in and learn and do what it takes to become good with dogs--and clearly that is not the case for your wife. Truly Brianbat* this is not a goood situation for anyone, most especially not for the dog.

In what you have described of your circumstances, however much you love this pup--and even because sometimes loving someone or something means doing what is best for the loved one, not for ourselves, I recommend that you consider rehoming him now while he is young, and while he has not yet developed too many terrible habits and when someone who does have the consistent time available to with him, and the interest in doing so can do so.

If you want to have a dog, and if you can get agreement from your wife that a dog is a good and desired not thing, object, furniture, but sentient living creature with many complex needs almost like having a child, then, for you in your circumstances I would seriously suggest buying an adult dog that is already fully trained.

And perhaps one from a somewhat smaller breed would indeed be wise. And perhaps one that is less apt to worry you about biting likelihood--like, for example, a labrador retriever. A nicely behaved professionally trained yellow labrador trotting smartly at your, or your wife's, side would no doubt be quite as delightful if not more so in your life as an untrained already starting to develop problems even at the young age of 14 weeks pup--and would no doubt do much more to enhance your career as well.

But don't get a dog at all unless you and your wife truly agree, both truly want one. Or unless you are at stage in life where you can be there all the time to take care of the dog. Or better yet, since it seems only you have the inclination to put in the effort a dog takes, would be both.

I might have also suggested the possibility of an adult, older, already trained rescued rottweiler--perhaps female which would be smaller--but I am concerned that your circumstances what with moves, changes in handler etc. sound far too unstable for a dog that has already had a significant amount of instability in its life.

i don't think I am going to have any more to say about this situation, because I don't think the problem is how do you train the dog to do or understand this or that, the problem is that it is the wrong dog, wrong age dog, wrong breed, wrong time in your life.

Wishing you the best truly,

Kate

[brianbat420]

I will respond to Beckys message in the morning (For me )
But on a lighter note I have a new pic of my puppie hope this works

http://hometown.aol.com/brianbat420/...age/index.html
Go there and you can see him:D

[Beckysmom]

Someone asked privately why I specified a yellow labrador, not black, not golden retriever?

Answer: (1) fur less difficult to care for on lab than golden--doubt the wife will want to brush out the dog when brianbat is not around to do it.

(2)yellow lab because the lighter color fur when it sheds all over the place (and it will!) will not show up so badly on brianbat's Dress Whites. ;)

I am trying to make light of it, but actually such considerations really do matter in that sort of position, career, situation.


(but if I am wrong and dress uniform is navy, or if brianbat wears a civilian charcoal color suit, get the black lab )

I couldn't see the picture :( :( :( I'll bet Rocky is cute though.

BTW if you can and don't already have it, try to get USAA insurance coverage. It is excellent, as US Armed Forces you should be eligible. It deals esp well with situation of travelling (so does the banking arm), and does not tend to have dog breed exclusions--though you could still lose coverage in the event a dog of yours actually bites someone.

[brianbat420]

sorry about that this should work

http://hometown.aol.com/brianbat420/...age/index.html

It is a pretty big pic so if you dont have High speed it will take a second

[Judi W]

Bringing a Rottweiler into the home is not like adopting a cat, which if some members of the family aren't excited about having a cat, they can pretty much ignore it and no harm done. That truly does not work with a dog and especially with a dog like a Rottweiler. To acquire a Rottweiler, no matter how much you want one, without the total buy in and committment of your wife was not particularly a very good idea. To do so and then leave the upbringing up her (even if temporary) when she is obviously not really interested nor competent to do so, is unfair to your wife as well as the pup.

All of this is of much more importance than what kind of collar to use. If you don't like using a pinch - then don't use one. It is that simple. However, the decision of whether to live with a dog, must be a cooperative decision amongst all who are in the household. So, I would suggest that you put your concerns on that issue first because this pup is going to keep getting bigger and older.

[H-B]

I read this article that maybe of interest to you regarding the prong collar.



http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html


H-B

[brianbat420]

Ok I am sorry that it has taken me so long to write everyone back here I go.

First off, for a little while there I had the feeling that my wife did not love Rocky as much as he deserved and that bothered me so I decided to talk to her and find out what was going on. After talking to her I know now that she does love him and that she really does want to keep him. She just wants to be the role of a loving mommie and not the mean trainer lol. I talked to her about it and I told her that we are going to have to be both VERY involved with his training and everything about him. She had the perception that every dog is perfect from the moment that you get them because the had an exceptionally good dog when she was younger and she keeps telling me that "Cookie wasn't this way I dont remember her being so bad at potty training" and I have reiterated that Rocky is Not Cookie and that each dog has there own personality and each dog learns at there own pace so you have to be more realistic about their training. She now understands that she was expecting to much out of a puppy and she is now going to get Rocky enrolled into Puppy Kindergarten so that they can spend some time together, can start to developing more of a relationship and so Rocky can get some (sorry about the spelling) socialization early on.

The main thing is that Myself and my wife love Rocky dearly and we are NOT going to give him away to another home there is just no way. We have started on our way to training, and with her now taking more time to develop the relationship and training I think that we will be a very happy somewhat well adjusted family.

Thank you all


PS I have some new pictures of Rocky just taken today and if you want to see just e-mail me and I will send them to you, but I have to warn you He is soooo cute:D

[Beckysmom]

Well, that was a heartening response! and congratulations on having a serious discussion about this with Jeanette and coming to what seems a satisfying and appropriate direction to go in.

in addition to all dogs being different and having to be taken as individuals, sometimes we remember dogs as they were after much work and forget the difficult parts.

Does anyone here know a really superb trainer for Jeanette to take puppy Rocky to in the Phoenix area? because there is a big difference in what she and he will get out of a great trainer compared to a mediocre one. (Not to even mention a poor one)

And perhaps Jeanette could get some help from this site too in regard to difficulties like potty training etc.

Kate (Becky was a dog).