Electronic Collars

[Luvs]

I was just kind of curious about how everyone felt about the use of electronic collars. What type of situations warrant the use of an e-collar? Who should use e-collars?

The reason I am asking is I have a "friend" who has a 6 month old rottie puppy who she is thinking about using an e-collar on. She already uses one on her 2 yo male rottie and her 2 yo husky/lab cross. In my opinion she is using it in place of training. They have not done any training before they started using the e-collar.

I have no problem with people using electronic collars. I think they are a great training tool. I don't think that just anyone should use one and I don't think that all situations warrant the use of an electronic collar.

I was just curious as to what those of you with more experience than me thought about it. I could be totally off base here and that is why I wanted to ask.

[damp]

I would suggest your “friend” made an attempt to TRAIN her dogs!!!

[sophie's-mom]

I think using an electric collar on a dog that does not know what is expected of him is not wise at ALL!!!

Ask your friend if it would be good training if she got SHOCKED every time she didn't answer a question that was spoken to her in JAPANESE!!!!

Without TRAINING the commands, the dog will NOT know why the dog is getting "punished"

I'm not trying to sound CRAPPY, but your friend sounds lazy.

[BostonRott]

I have an e-collar, don't use it very often......matter of fact, got it for a very specific training situation.

E-collars can be dialed down to give a stimulation so low you can't even feel it. It's not as though every level hurts. I tried mine on myself before I ever put it on my dog.

Training needs to be done before an e-collar is used. If it is not used properly, it can greatly confuse the dog, and the dog may well think that a particular spot on the ground, or object, gave them the shock, not the collar. One of the problems with an ecollar is that it does not give direction with the correction. A leash does. This is a large part of why the dog must already be trained.

In my situation, we used it for adding control to the blind search. Froli already knew "hier" as her recall, and also the commands for the blind search. Her problem was that she was so high in drive, that calling her to a front sit between the blinds (as she raced across the field) was simply not working. Trying to do it over and over with no reward (bite) for the incorrect search did nothing, except eventually tire her out. It was quite awhile before I gave in and tried the e-collar. A few mid-level stims while she was in very high drive and the problem was corrected. Has not been a problem ever again, and my collar sits on the counter, collecting dust.

An e-collar is not something I would casually recommend to people, but it's also not as evil as some make it out to be.

[damp]

I do understand what you are saying Boston Rott (even I have no experience in the use of E collar and for that matter prong collar since both are not legal to use here) Just as many think, that a choke collar is “evil”, I know when use correct, it’s a great training tool too.

I react, when an owner doesn’t take the time and effort to TEACH their dogs and even if it’s used with knowledge and responsibility I don’t think...neither a choke/ prong/ or E collar belong on the neck of a 6 months old pup. I think this owner lacks of knowledge and responsibility!!! (That’s what, regarding to Luvs post and questions, makes a great training tool “evil”)

PS. I don’t make the laws here ;)

[Luvs]

Originally posted by damp
I would suggest your “friend” made an attempt to TRAIN her dogs!!!

Damp, I agree with you 100%! A dog needs to be trained and have an understanding of what is expected before using an electronic collar. It really bothered me when my friend told she intended to use an e-collar on her puppy. The puppy has no training and this is her way out of putting any real effort into training.

Sophies-mom, I think you are totally right about her being lazy and needing to train her dogs.

One of the main reasons I asked this question is because when she told me what she was going to do, it really upset me and after I started thinking about it I thought that maybe I was just over reacting. I am glad to see that I wasn't.

An electronic collar just like a prong and choke can be a great training tool but it can also cause alot of problems if used

Thank you for all of your responses. I feel much better about my reaction after reading your posts.;)

[BostonRott]

Damp,

Completely agree!! If a person can't control a healthy 6mos puppy, I'd strongly question their ability to own a dog at all.

[Beckysmom]

In thread "Two quick training collar questions" below there is a lot of thrashing things out in re: e-collars. The next to last post by Larry pretty well sums up when use is appropriate and when not, I think. 'when Not' includes when dog is not already basically trained to understand without it. (your friend's pup's situation).

If you do a search under e-collar there are also some helpful posts on the subject by Lou Castle. "Uncle Lou"?

Even when it doesn't hurt, there is no question that the feeling of the ecollar can be disturbing in a way that is very different from a regular training collar.

[BostonRott]

Yep, Larry makes excellent points. One final point: there is a correct way to use an e-collar, and the dog must be taught what it is, how to turn off the stimulus, and also, how to avoid it. This in itself is usually a 2-3 week process.

As Damp said, certainly something I'd never put on a 6mos puppy!

[Beckysmom]

Gretchen,

Since I have just gotten first ecollar ever for a dog in my life, I am interested in following up that last comment of yours, but not sure if it should go here or needs new thread out of the 6 month puppy question.

My primary use will be to have a beeper sound be on when dog is loose in wooded area behind house. (within about 20 feet the "greenout" is such that a herd of scarlet giraffes would be invisible). Initially this idea came about due to erroneous belief that my dog had hearing deficit... but his new vet says use the beeper anyway. Too easy to lose a dog, no matter how good his nose is and even with perfect ears else.

Secondary use is to curb truck chasing / aggression. The system for this is that a low level stimulation is used (dog is on leash and prong, but those are insufficient in and of themselves) along with a command to return to his heel position. As soon as he starts to return to position the stim goes off, as soon as he is in position he gets pet/praise reward. (He is never off leash where he could get into the truck problem...however we do have a problem of charging perimeter fencing, backyard fencing, and even his kennel fencing when a truck goes by, that might or might not be amenable to ecollar to help solve it. Even when I know he cannot get out of his kennel, I am unhappy to see him practicing his charges from in there. At same time, I cannot be home to enforce even with ecollar all the time. His trainer said I could run an electrified wire on the kennel (or other fences he may charge)--so long as I train him to it, by deliberately baiting it with bacon grease or similar-- but I have not quite felt comfortable doing this.) Regular cars are not so much a problem-he seems to class them, like little dogs, as not worth his attention.

Tertiary use is some ways off and will be to proof obedience of known commands, particularly when off leash at distance. Some of these are supposed to be with a more quick nick (but higher stim level) system, and I have been working this out on my hand while watching the dog--seems to me it would be easy to make a mistake and hit the button too late and get the dog as he has just finally decided that he will "drop" or so forth. At the moment this use in still in the distant future, it seems, but I'd be interested in your comments on it and the timing issue.

PS the new vet wants a copy of the info I got from you on vaccine schedules. If I cannot find it, is it something you still have and could send again?

Kate

[Storm]

A well established foundation must be formed in training as well as attitude or bond between handler and dog. With years of establishing this you know where your dog is, what is understood, what is clear and what may need reinforcing. Used correctly with good understanding from dog and handler, drives are maintained, capped if you like, and the dog surfaces not only correct yet maintaining good attitude. Human understanding vs dog understanding is so different what many people struggle with is the dog's interpretation of an exercise, analyzing it from a humans perspective, interpreted incorrectly + electric................ big problems! There is a fine line between teaching and reinforcing, depending on the trainer's ability to apply these methods.

[DivaDog]

ew, I don't like the sound of an ecollar on a puppy at all. I am curious though, Luvs, how her older dogs act. Do they always have the ecollar on? Are they well behaved, even without it on? I don't think there's anything wrong with using it for extreme situations, but your friend certainly has the wrong idea!

[Luvs]

Originally posted by DivaDog
ew, I don't like the sound of an ecollar on a puppy at all. I am curious though, Luvs, how her older dogs act. Do they always have the ecollar on? Are they well behaved, even without it on? I don't think there's anything wrong with using it for extreme situations, but your friend certainly has the wrong idea!

I have not been around her dogs a whole lot but from what I have seen they are not very well behaved when the collars are off. They put the collars on them when they want to take them places and do things with them. They are also worn sometimes when they are in the dog run and they are barking.

I totally agree that she has the wrong idea about how the collar should be used. I have been trying to talk her into joining our training club because I think she would learn alot and it would be good for both her, the puppy and the older dogs. So far no luck but I haven't given up yethttp://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/...smiley-006.gif

[sophie's-mom]

Originally posted by Luvs
I have not been around her dogs a whole lot but from what I have seen they are not very well behaved when the collars are off. [/img]

The dogs are not well behaved when the collars are off because all they know is they have to behave when the collars are ON. The "punishment" is only given when they have this "thing" around their neck. They recognize THAT, which proves the dogs aren't dumb.

YES!!! Try to get your friend to your training club!! ASAP!!!

[BostonRott]

Tri-tronics puts out a video tape about training your dog to understand the collar.

It can be used, as you mentioned, with constant stim to effect an action and turns off when the action is complete. I.e. return to heel, go out to db, etc. But first, the dog must learn that the stim will turn off when the correct action is completed. This is done using a well understood and performed behaviour.....to teach the dog about the collar, not the behaviour.

It can also be used to "speed up" the performance of a behaviour, i.e. faster downs. Dog learns that he can "beat" the buzz, i.e. if I down really quickly, it doesn't turn on. Again, this must be taught using a known behaviour.

All of this is well covered in the tape, and I'd also suggest trying to find a trainer who is well versed in the use of the collar and how to properly train with it, including the use of the dummy collar.

Re: vaccine info, yes, I still have anything you'd like. :)