Bodhi gets a new vet; new take on his hearing

[Beckysmom]

Took Bodhi to the city for visit with new vet as recommended by Bodhi's trainer. This will be Bodhi's vet from now on.

This is not exact because no notes taken, and pretty tired right now, but here more or less a rendition of vet visit.

First and probably most important: B attempted his growl and scare off the stranger routine, was very calmly foiled. (Hip, hip, hoorah!!!) Vet (very large powerful hands) held him directly by the prong collar with fingers in the prong metal such that Bodhi could not bite. Not only maintained contact and did not let B scare him away, but any attempt by B to increase his threat got from vet reactions like: "ah, so you don't like your head petted when a stranger holds on to you, let's do it some more shall we. I bet you don't like it when a stranger leans over you either do you?" etc. relentless. The vet won. No violence either way. Most of the visit was taken up by this even though it only got a paragraph. The rest was in the final parts of visit, and went quite fast.

Vet's analysis is that the gun test was a stupid way to test his hearing. That things like potato chip bags being ignored also not relevant. Analysis as follows:

Vet's analysis is that B. is extremely dominant, fearless dog. Doesn't react to blank gun because it doesn't phase him, and because we live in hunting area and real rifles have been heard for months--never with any consequence to dog, so why bother to pay attention to it, and especially some piddly little blank gun when real rifle shots don't phase him.. (which is true, save for once--first time perhaps?, I never saw a reaction to them--and they are way louder than my giving him verbal commands at the end of leash which I know he hears fine.) Potato chip bag crinkle: vet thinks B can hear such perfectly well, and further knows exactly what the sound is and that it represents something he likes. That B knows that I never give potato chips to dogs who show up and beg. But might sometimes to a dog who has shown no response, and continued to lie quietly in his spot, if and when I feel like it. Ergo, B simply doing what I taught him to do.
(Probably on items other than potato chip bag, but lesson got generalized.)

he thinks there may be some trouble in the location of where sounds are coming from--though largely due to nature of where we live with mountains and echoes that are deceptive. Thinks this should be worked on--but that I need another method than the hide seek game, because B will continue to use his nose for that. Why? Because he is a smart dog, and he has already discovered that it works much better to use nose than to use ears to locate someone in an area with strong echoes etc. (of course, if we both enjoy the other hide and seek game, we can keep it as a game)

Finally, he did a hearing check test the way he thought it should be done with a dominant fearless type dog, which was to use a sound that the dog would not have been likely to hear ever before, and arouse sense of curiosity. He used some medical instruments to make a little ringing scratching simultaneously type noise, hidden from B's view. Quite effective.

He also thinks his smell sense is in fact ultra sharp, such that B will probably always tend to be extremely scent oriented dog, and if he is in a scent related situation eg head in gopher hole, his ears may actuallly be in some sense off--not just teenage rebellion, but brain actually preferentially selecting the smell over the sound. Thus, ways to get his attention, like touching his tail etc. still likely to help and keep our relationship happier than if I try to get his attention with sound alone. He thinks this is why it seemed that things changed in last few days for the better while I was under belief that B had hearing problem and that getting his attention with a touch to tail, also speaking louder, seems to have greatly aided our relationship. Not a hearing problem, just what it takes to get over this particular dog's threshhold of awareness when in the distracting circumstances of the great outdoors.

At the same time, he thinks I need to keep strong look out for selective hearing / teenage rebellion / dominance and not allow it.

Thinks losing him 10 feet away in tall grass is that B is a sound sleeper. B demonstrated falling asleep and starting into snoring part way through visit.

Doctor's orders: keep him on Nilif, bootcamp, do what Ken (trainer) says.

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Despite apparently B not having a hearing problem after all, all things learned and purchased for that purpose still wise to use for B due to our circumstances.

whistle--far more appropriate than voice in outdoors in my circumstances, because will travel further with less echo--but also train all standard voice recall, drop etc. commands, and all arm/hand signal commands. And make sure he will do them all independently of each other.

ecollar and beeper very important safety devices for when off leash, one for control, and the other to help know if he is getting beyond my range of acceptable distance so I can call him--and also so that if he were to be injured or etc. I can find him. Probably for many rottie type dogs in many offleash circumstance, but certainly for fast B, with miles of forest to disappear in should he choose--or even not choose, but get lost following a scent or a deer etc..

startle reaction: probably a dominance related thing to suddenly jump and turn to face things head on, not what a hearing related startle looks like. That a hearing related startle usually has the dog looking scared, not turning looking ready to face down whatever is there sneaking up on him, and then shifting to a tail wag if it seems like nothing much.

Thinks his having seemed off in his own world and needing to be reached there is again more about dominance and threshhold at which he is responsive, maybe about having been left to his own devices in the world, and that the clinginess is probably as I initially thought still to do with abandonment "issues". That any lessening over last week is simply a matter of coincidence and goes along with B being able to better tolerate time alone in kennel now etc. and that it has nothing to do with change of behaviour, volume, etc. on my part. And specifically that work on his separation anxiety was being worked on a lot over last two weeks and it is beginning to show. (I was putting him in his kennel daily before bike or walk time, and daily increasing amount of time he spends there before the bike or walk happens. --with, of course, no response to wailing, howling, etc. I had had to defer this when I tried a while back because B was actually injuring himself by trying to bite his way out etc., but then a couple of weeks ago i decided he was ready and tried it again.)



All in all a good day at the vet's. More to do with training, as it turned out, than with health.

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The office is interesting incidentally. All animals wait in car until it is time for appointment. leave via back door and back into car, then human goes in to front desk to check out. It makes it a great deal more calm--that is the calmest I have ever seen a vet's office even with 3 vets practicing at same time, and their respective patients coming andgoing.. Vet said they started that during parvo virus outbreak many years ago to keep healthy animals from contracting it from infected ones as they sat in waiting room. Then, so many clients said they loved the system he decided to keep it permanently. If any vets are reading this post, I suggest adopting this system. It was great!

For anyone trying to search for things related to subject perhaps years hence again a few words: partial deafness, deaf, impaired hearing. (Not Bodhi).

[Rottlva]

Kate, my hat is off to you. You've been around the ringer and back with this boy..... Keep up the effort!!! As for the selective hearing......Well....Can't say he didn't try to fool you!

[Judi W]

That made me smile.

So, upshot is that he was blowing you off! Oh oh, poor boy, he is in for a rude awakening.

[Beckysmom]

Could be blowing me off less than I think. I tend not to give commands to dogs who I think won't listen when I can't enforce. I may also not be listening adequately to the commands that I am giving. e.g. recently, had him out in woods area, was time to go. Said, "Bodhi.' No bodhi. Said in a voice probably heard by every dog all the way to Reedsport, even the deaf ones, "Bodhi, it is time to go home, now!" No Bodhi. Searched and searched. No Bodhi. Very unhappy--glad though that tho no sound on him yet he did have already turned on light collar even tho still daylight. Finally decide to go home. Am greeted by a Bodhi, start to let him know how I feel. He "says" "Kate, you have been showing me where 'home' is for weeks, you've been teaching me 'go' . You said, "go home" and I did. I went straight home. It is not my fault you spent next hour or two searching for me where I wasn't. I think you are the one who has a listening problem."

While getting his new collar stuff fixed up, am getting a long line out of leather, suitable as double for tracking lead. The nylon stuff doesn't give enough of what it takes and gets caught on brambles too much.

Next step in the recall training will be to do Mary DVM method alone--with a very stout good control long line on. No games hiding in the trees mixed in.

A very interesting side journey on the path toward a solid off leash, outdoor recall. And now Bodhi has what for him is right trainer--and right vet.

And everything learned is still useful--ideas on whistle training from you, Judi, signal ideas from KateG...

Maybe I better go back and read the part under the high nerve (was that it?) dog in Mick Trainer's post. I think that is another way of saying what vet meant in dominant + fearless.

(Glad I didn't waste time with first clicker trainer trying to click/treat him out some unidentified fear of blondes or hats... ;))

Oh yes, one way or another he is in for a rude awakening...

Kate

[Judi W]

I have always made all my tracking lines out of repelling line. It is designed not to tangle (although possible), is very light, easy on the hands. You might find leather quite heavy at that length. Visit a mountaineering shop before you decide.

[KateG]

In some ways your experience is exactly the reverse of mine: with both the shelter manager and our trainer initially assuming that Calvin's lack of response to verbal signals was due to pig headedness and distraction, when it turned out to be a genuine hearing loss. Glad to hear that Bodhi is a "fully dimensional dog" as my husband calls our current Rotti girl. And kudos to you for all your hard work.

[Beckysmom]

KateG: Thanks for all your help, KateG, and I still think Calvin was there somehow that day.

The first vet was the one who had seen Bodhi when he was a mess of cuts and fleas and greyish hair etc etc and maybe more inclined to cut him slack. He had already gotten into the poor little Bodhi, woe is Bodhi side of the dog. (Which the dog pulled off well with his inflamed eyes rolled back and tears streaming down his face)

This one --besides knowing more history of Bodhi over the last months I've had dog and the source of referral )--he saw a sleek attractive healthy dog who is not afraid to try to stand down log trucks. He also probably just simply knows more, has seen more, etc., over the years. Said it is not uncommon to wonder about ears in the very dominant unflappable guys because they can have things fall right beside them keys tossed down etc. and they move not a whit. Give no sign at all of awareness. Which is why he said you have to get them at their point of curiosity.

Thinks Bodhi's big size is because he was the pup who pushed the other ones away and got first suckle dibs, not some big breed of dog mixed in. But who knows. Anyway he didn't see a possible rottie/mastiff. He saw the big alpha male of a litter. And whatever is correct, it does affect the analysis, thehandling of the dog etc.

Judi W: rapelling as in descent down cliff? Have some and had same problem of it getting caught in brambles--but maybe everything is going to do that and I may as well keep cost down (this is in re the use as a long line. For tracking I expect one would be more in a meadow than in dense woods.) Maybe I should go out with machete and clear a training work area ... The mountain climbing stuff IS far better on hands! Mine though is also heavy. Yours not?--scratch that . I just held it and it is heavier than the nylon check cord, but a lot lighter than leather. If it gets caught bet leather will too. Guess I better get the machete. Scythe is what I really need. Can't use weed eater on this stuff, it whips around with little thorns... :(

[mmgy]

SO, SO, SO GLAD to hear you've found a vet that will treat you and Bodhi with respect!!!

[Luvs]

I think it is wonderful that you found a vet that is willing to go the extra mile with you and Bodhi. Finding a vet that you can really work well with is so important and alot of times very difficult. I am glad to hear that all is well in the hearing department with your boy!:D

[jessaroo]

BeckysMom - you give me hope! And reading your posts is funnier than watching Seinfeld!

Kai (a rescue) has some issues that are starting to emerge and I too will be interviewing a new vet this week. We had a brief meeting yesterday (without Kai) and I told her his problems. She didn't run, she didn't hide and said she was anxious to talk to me so I'm hopeful. She also does behavioral consultation. To me Kai's issues seem to be fear-related, which were reinforced the last time he was at the vet. He was very stressed, vet tech was very stressed (to me the tech seemed afraid the moment he tried to touch Kai and Kai wouldn't let him) which stressed me. No aggression, just a lot of backing up and dancing around. That behavior succeeded in driving the tech out of the room. The vet came in (minus the tech) and did everything but the fecal. I asked his advice on the problem, and he just said to take him to as many places as I can. Been there, done that. Hope it helps with the new vet. I hear she's called "The Dog Whisperer!"