Accidental Biting or Not?

[MyBellaBaby]

This is my first time here and I am hoping for some great advice as I have seen on other posts.

My baby, Bella, 18 months is new to our family (3 weeks new). She plays rough, as is the breed (Rott). But we are teaching her easy especially around the kids. My son, 11, was playing tug o war with her (which she loves) and he pulled her toy back to throw it and he lunged at him and bit his arm. She did break the skin, but let go once he dropped the toy and she saw that she had his arm instead. This worries me, since then we have her to the point where she will drop the toy and take it very carefully from who ever has it. Since she did bite him, kind of hard, should I continue to worry that it was an agressive move? And what would be your further recommendation for easy when playing? Thanks for your help, sorry for the length.

[sophie's-mom]

It is not a good thing that your son was tugging with the dog. IF the dog has only been in your house for a few weeks, then there are a TON of things that you still don't know about her.

I don't believe this was an aggressive incident. But it's not a good idea to play COMPETETIVE games with an 18 month old Rottweiler that has probably had little or no training. The only focus the dog had at the time was to GET THE TOY!!!!!

This type of playing needs to cease until the dog is AWARE of her RANKING in the household.

[lblax]

sounds like maybe it was an accidant

[godfreyc]

IMO this wasn't aggression. Where did you get her? Has she been around kids? Had any training? It sounds like she's new to the home, the playing got a little rougher than it should have and she got too wound up. Having her drop the toy and sit before your son picks it up to throw is and excellent idea. Also I wouldn't let them play tug because somebody has to win and this could confuse your pup if she wins too often. She's still a baby and should be following NILIF (nothing in life is free) that will help with establishing pecking order. If I were you I wouldn't worry and just start working on her obedience training so she gets the idea.

[Judi W]

Most important thing you need to understand is that you don't even know this dog! It takes several months for the dog to aclimate to the new home and for you all to start to understand the rules.

One of the first rules for an unknown dog is not to play games like tug. Especially, not to have a child play any games that involve the dog using its teeth during the interaction. Sit for the cookies and down for the cookie is a good start for them. Carol Lea Benjamin has a great book on dog training for kids if your son is interested in that.

Holding a treasure up high stimulates the dog to jump for the treasure and since the dog cannot grab it with hands, it is going to grab with the mouth. Children are not the most stable at holding still - a moving target certainly can cause a missed grab.

I think there are better games. Hide and seek, find the cookie, come when called........ but leave the tug stuff aside for quite some time. Hard enough to teach "easy" without the added stimulation of a tug game.

[MyBellaBaby]

Thank you all so much for your input. I know what you are saying Judy, we don't know her yet, but it seems like we have had her for longer than we really have. I have told my son not to tease her and he learned his lesson the hard way this time. Godfreyc - Bella was bred from a friend of ours who breeds rotts. We received our last rott from her also. Belle was placed in a home with 3 other dogs, and could not get along with the other female. She attacked the other female and then her owner sent her back to Tami (our breeder). Tami knew we were looking for another dog since ours was put down. As far as I know, she has had basic obedience class, I have worked with her also since we got her. We have an e-collar that we weaved into training and it works extremely well with her stubborn attitude. She was around kids of the same age as my son. My daughter is 3 and she has not lived with kids that young. I have never had a problem with her and my daughter, she is very gently with her by nature. But ALWAYS supervised. i don't understand what NILIF is? Could you explain what you mean? Thank you all so much!:)

[mercedes]

sounds like maybe it was an accidant

Thats what it sounds like. It doesn't sound like agression. Also, no on the tug of war. Mabey someone already said that?

[Wrath]

Originally posted by Judi W
Most important thing you need to understand is that you don't even know this dog! It takes several months for the dog to aclimate to the new home and for you all to start to understand the rules.

One of the first rules for an unknown dog is not to play games like tug. Especially, not to have a child play any games that involve the dog using its teeth during the interaction. Sit for the cookies and down for the cookie is a good start for them. Carol Lea Benjamin has a great book on dog training for kids if your son is interested in that.

Holding a treasure up high stimulates the dog to jump for the treasure and since the dog cannot grab it with hands, it is going to grab with the mouth. Children are not the most stable at holding still - a moving target certainly can cause a missed grab.

I think there are better games. Hide and seek, find the cookie, come when called........ but leave the tug stuff aside for quite some time. Hard enough to teach "easy" without the added stimulation of a tug game.

I'm definitly 100% behind this advice and would like to add that tug shouldn't be played vigoursly until the dog has really mastered the 'out' or 'drop it' command. Also, dog need to play safely, stay in control, and learn to be very careful about what they're biting and how hard, if they can't control their biting enough to keep from nipping fingers then don't play tug with them.

[Sharon Marples]

NILIF - "Nothing in Life is Free"

Here is one link for the program: http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm

Sharon

[legalbeagle]

Advice to you from a mom:

Never, ever let an 11 yr old boy play tug o' war with a large breed dog, or any dog for that matter. Period. No excuses. This bite was an accident but it's also your fault for allowing an unknown dog to engage in biting games with an 11 yr old.

I've been a mom of an 11 yr old boy - and the child is NOT equipped to handle a large working breed dog like a Rottweiler. Unless you send your son to formal obedience classes with this dog, you MUST not allow teasing, games of competition [such as kid pulling a sock with a dog] and kids running around like wild monkeys for the dog to chase or become stimulated in prey drive. The next thing you know, if you allow this sort of play, the dog will be biting your son or other kids on the back of the body as they run and someone will be hurt, and ultimately, the dog will lose.

Eleven year old boys are typically full of too much energy and think a big dog is a toy. I know, I've had this issue myself. I had to come down hard on my son for doing things with the dogs he knew better than to do - such snatching a bone while the dog was chewing it [he's lucky he has a face] and other bratty boy tricks. I mention playing 'chase' because my son at the time felt it would be a great time to have the 109 lb. Rottie we had then [an unneutered male who I was showing] chase him in the yard. The dog promptly knocked the kid down, nipped his butt and legs and my son began wailing like he was being killed. He was punished and grounded. The dog wasn't.

I'd also be VERY careful with a 3 yr old child around a dog, especially a huge dog like a Rottweiler. Under no circumstances should you allow the toddler to poke, prod or annoy the dog while you sit there thinking how great the dog is with kids. That's not the sort of impromptu temperament test anyone should do with a dog with full set of teeth. Let the dog sniff the baby while you hold her, and that's it. Put the dog away in a crate or in another room if the toddler is out and about.

Do not fail to take this dog to formal obedience. Do not mention this bite to your insurance company lest you completely lose insurance and worse, it goes into your permanent insurance record [A DATABASE ALL INSURERS USE TO COLLECT AND SHARE DATA] making you uninsured or uninsurable.

Since summer is approaching, take your kids and the dog on nice long walks and let them see the dog more than interact for now. Never allow your son to interfere with this dog's meal time or chewie toys, perhaps even feed or give bones in the crate only. Being an eleven year old is a profoundly curious time for kids and they test boundaries and can get into big trouble if not monitored 100% of the time.

Good luck and congrats on the new dog!

Cathi M.

[MyBellaBaby]

Hello Cathy and thank you for your response. I completely agree about it being my fault about the bite. I wasn't stern enough with my son or the dog for that matter. She is going through formal training at this point. As far as not allowing her to play with my daughter and crate her when my daughter is out and about, I have to disagree with that theory.

I monitor those two very closely and NEVER leave them alone, however, interaction with the family is very important, especially with a rott. I have owned 4 all together and understand their temperment and behavior through extensive research and training with all four. I want you to know that I do not allow my 3 year old to prod or annoy the dog while I "sit there and think what a great dog she is". I do not allow my daughter to antagonize any animal. My 3 year old feeds Belle and gives her treats. Through letting Mandy, my daughter, feed the dog her dinner, Belle is not threatened by her and considers her as a higher rank. Again, this is all very closely supervised.

You are right about not mentioning this to the insurance company. It is not warranted either way, neither was a doctor visit, it jsut barely broke the skin and was not a bad bite. I had just never had a dog bite anyone before.

You gave me a lot of great advice and I truly appreciate it. We are very happy to have her. She likes to sit with my daughter on the floor for "story time" where Belle will lie down and Mandy will show her the pictures in her book. Its odd, but the two of them love it. Belle is very protective of my daughter. A neighbors dog wandered into our yard the other day and knocked over Mandy. Belle immediately confronted the dog and chased him out of the yard and them kissed mandy's face because she was crying. The only thing that I have to disagree with is the fact that you should seperate a toddle (if well behaved) from a family pet - any breed. They need to both learn boundaries and if there is no aggression then they can learn peacefully. However, when I have a baby over that can barely walk, I will seperate them. Thank you for your help. And thanks for the congrats, we are very happy to have her.

[LavenderRott]

My Chase has never been crated in my home. I got her when I was pregnant with my son. She has always been great with him and his friends.

Chase rough houses with me and my SO only. The kids get kisses.

Since you have not had issues with the new dog and your daughter, I think that not crating her is fine as long as someone is around. I also think that seperation when unknown children are in the house is also appropriate. Not only to keep any accidents from happening but to protect your dog. Unfortunately, not all kids are dog proof.

[legalbeagle]

Hi MyBellaBaby [MBB? heh],

It's nice to read that Bella is so attuned to the toddler. My girl, Zoe, who's a rescue, happens to enjoy kids too. Her only "issue" is that no one other than myself can kiss her on the top of her head. Other than that little quirk [she will low rumble and show she doesn't like it] she's very sweet to kids. Since we don't have any now [kids all grown up, including that bratty 11 yr old! ha!], we don't have much exposure to family or friends with kids.

I'm always very cautious about children under 12 or 13 around dogs, even the little ankle biters [perhaps even more so, as people tend to mistake their body language]. So many children end up with a face bite from a dog whom others felt was safe. In cases of unknown dogs, I myself never offer a top of the head pet or get close enough for a face chomping. :D

I think perhaps you're handling it the right way with Bella - supervised contact and calm activities. If Bella has a pronounced prey drive, just remember to keep in mind she could bolt after a squirrel or other critter and knock someone over [assuming this was in the yard.] Since having my first Rottweiler over 2 decades ago, and knowing my own mistakes, I've become a "dog nazi" as my son puts it. Definitely because of the silly and stupid things I'd done as a younger person with big huge dogs. Thank god everyone survived. Including our dogs. :)

Best wishes with this new addition. Summer is a great time to bond with a dog and enjoy all the things we can't in the winter.

Cathi M.

[Beckysmom]

Please see my comments to your posts in regard to prong collar thread.

You have only had her 3 weeks. You have not built a relationship. You are giving her tons of freedom, probably way beyond what she can handle. You are using an e-collar at quite high (even if I misunderstood and thought you had said highest level) for all infractions, including failure to sit or come or stay--and it is certainly not clear to me from what you post that you can be certain the dog knows those commands (gleaned from posts in other thread) on a recent rescue dog. I am sure that you love this dog as you say. But it is my feeling that you are causing her problems. That you are being significantly aggressive in your use of the ecollar with her, and unfair in the way you are giving her freedom beyond her ability to handle it--and then zapping her when she does what you do not want her to do. I am not surprised if she ends up behaving aggressively herself.

I defer to those more experienced--but do have a very strong conviction that the use of ecollar on your part, the freedom offered prematurely etc. (proably much I do not know about, is not in the best interests of the dog.

I think you are already being too harsh with her, it concerns me deeply that you think you need to ge even further in that direction.

[Judi W]

I absolutely agree with Kate, and that is likely because I do not use an ecollar for training. I am not opposed to one being used by a professional on a dog that is being proofed for sophisticated work, but it is not a teaching device and certainly should not be used when one has no knowlege of even what the dog knows and understands.

Also, since the original post clearly asked if the dog was being aggressive or not, it is evident that you do not know this dog very well............ She might remind you of other dogs you have owned, but she is not and it is necessary that you remember this. No small responsibility.

One other thing bothered me. If a neighbor dog could wander into your yard, then it sounds as if the yard is not fenced. Since she is known to be dog aggressive it was more likely a dog to dog issued not to be confused with "protecting" your daughter. If she does that with a dog that holds its ground, there can be some serious injuries and that includes people. Do not have her off leash in unfenced areas. If a person is hurt in a dog fight (and it could even be your child), there will be serious consequences. If another dog is badly chewed up there can and will still be serious consequences.