Two quick training collar questions

[Wrath]

1) How do you keep a prong collar up behind the ears? I position it there and it always slides down after a half dozen steps. Jaxom has a tendancy to lower his head and sniff ground as he tromps along, so giving him leash corrections in this position also helps pull the collar down

2) Does anyone use electric collars? I'm running into a problem with the prong in that I have to yank PRETTY hard on occasions to get him to even notice, especially if he's challenging another dog. I'm a bit concerned about the damage I might be doing and am thinking that I could use an electirc collar for the strong corrections with much less damaging results...but I wanted to get opinions about them from some of the more experienced members. I know they're not allowed in the ring, but then neither are prong collars...any other Cons?

[DNeff]

Sounds like you need to take a few links out of your prong. The prong should be snug on the upper neck, and if it's moving you probably have it too loose.

IMO I would fit your prong a little better and than reevaluate whether you need to use something else. If it's not fitted right you won't get a proper correction anyway.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC NA NAJ TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Skip]

Originally posted by DNeff
Sounds like you need to take a few links out of your prong. The prong should be snug on the upper neck, and if it's moving you probably have it too loose.

IMO I would fit your prong a little better and than reevaluate whether you need to use something else. If it's not fitted right you won't get a proper correction anyway.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC NA NAJ TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

Totally agree. Don't give up on the prong yet. It hasn't been used properly. If it's too loose, you have to give twice the effort to get half the correction. Take out enough links until it stays high up on the neck.

[Storm]

Make sure firstly that you and the dog are working together, interacting where there is almost continuos "attitude" of interaction, If you can get this right which is very difficult to explain here, that is half of the problem solved. Will the electric work? Definately yet by working more on the dog/handler drive concept it should improve the situation alot. Is this during informal walks or formal training sessions?

[GenHannibal]

While I agree with the other posters, I have to caution you in using the e-collar. Definitely correct the fitting of the pinch collar and perhaps even use a smaller sized pinch. If you do not have the focus of your dog and are not able to correct him with a pinch, you need to go make to square one in training. Your dog may not have a full understanding of what you are expecting him to do. An e-collar used incorrectly can only enhance his agression towards other dogs. What is happening is that when he sees another dog he is high-drive mode, making it more difficult to correct him. You should have his attention prior to him seeing and focusing on the other dog. E-collars are more effective if the dog has a good understanding of the commands you HAVE taught. Perhaps, you need to find someone who can help you in this area.

[Wrath]

Originally posted by Storm
Make sure firstly that you and the dog are working together, interacting where there is almost continuos "attitude" of interaction, If you can get this right which is very difficult to explain here, that is half of the problem solved. Will the electric work? Definately yet by working more on the dog/handler drive concept it should improve the situation alot. Is this during informal walks or formal training sessions?

In the past it's happend on both occasions. He has been getting much better in class, I have been working much harder on keeping his attention. I don't allow him to waver even a bit, because when be becomes interested in something else it tends to snowball quickly and I end up with a dog totally focused on something else it it's very difficult to get him back in the right frame of mind. I'm also trying to keep a sharper eye out for potentially distracting situations, particularly other dogs and I will physically steer Jaxom away and try to get him looking in the other direction, or I will step between the two of them and work on getting him to watch me.

His drive to work with me is pretty good most of the time, and I give him fairly constant feedback (generally good), roughly every 5-10 seconds while practicing a behavior like heeling. Am I just expecting too much focus from him at 11 MOs?

I think I may try a smaller pinch for now and try dropping a link.

[Beckysmom]

Storm: Can you speak a little more to the continuous attitude of interaction idea. Both in theory, but even more usefully in terms of practical steps to attain it.

I know I have had a problem with this myself, and part of what I have had to do seems counterintuitively to control less so that my dog has to work to me more. That way we are more of a team.

If I control and direct him too much, it leaves him free to wander his attention to other dogs etc., knowing that I am guiding him, if I do not guide so much, he works to me, and thus cannot have his attention on other dogs.

I am not sure if the less control and guidance so that dog must work to the handler idea might also help with Jaxom.

[GenHannibal]

Maturity definitely is something to take into consideration. But, also knowing that the dog really understands what you are asking of them. Sometimes it is better to break down an exercise into phases. Too many times a person thinks when a dog responds to their commands knows it, when it is just following body language or a routine.

For example: A dog that will sit in any situation knows the command. If it lies down, does not sit for you in any other position than you've always taught, or body language isn't there,etc, it means that the dog really doesn't know the verbal sit command. If there is a lack of focus it may be that the dog truly does not understand and you may have tried to make the whole picture the exercise. If you have to direct the dog too much the question may be, does the dog really understand or are you doing most of the work for him. Teaching and corrections sometimes can be confused, too.

[MyBellaBaby]

Hi! I am new to this message board and really impressed on the conversations and ideas that are flowing. I recently have put down our second rott Sampson at 5 years old, he had cancer. Our newest addition, we adopted, Bella, she is 18 months and very dominant and stubborn. She has come a long way in the few short weeks we have had her. The initial training was helpful but the training with an e-collar has been impeccable. It is amazing how she respects what you command and I feel confident with appropriate training and the use of the e-collar she will be a very well behaved dog. I think that if you are dealing with a very stubborn rott, this is the way to go.:D

[Wrath]

I don't attribute any of our problems to stubborness, more a general lack of focus or way too much interest in other things going on around him. Other dogs are almost always guaranteed to steal his focus from me. I did get his pinch fitting better by removing a link, it stayed right up behind his ears but it feels very tight to me.

We had a short work session last night, and halfway into it someone came over to the common area where we were with a terrier and it was pretty much over at that point. Jaxom saw him, and in this instance wanted to investigate and play. He began to stare and whimper/whine at the other dog, play bowing, huffing...I couldn't get his focus back. Tried steering him to the back corner facing the away, but he would bend himself around so he could look the other way. Some really firm leash corrections (enough to ellicit a yelp) would get him back for a few seconds, but he just couldn't help himself...he's slowly start to look back for the other dog. 3 or 4 corrections later he was still preoccupied but half-heartedly doing the behaviors. I decided this was going to be an off night, called it quits, and we headed back in. The terrier had been gone for 10 minutes, but even when we got back inside, Jaxom was still thinking about him.

On a positive note, he did the majority of about turns VERY well, I think he may have finally caught on to what he's supposed to be doing. I'm just at a loss on how to train him to ignore distractions. Coaxing and persuading doesn't work, hard corrections work for a very short period, redirecting his attention or getting between him and the distraction doesn't really work, even outright bribery by waving treats in his face is only a temporary solution.

[pjackson]

Hello All,

I have an almost 5 month old female rottie, as precious as can be. We have been doing very good on training, although we are dealing with pulling issues a little. I use a buckle collar, with a thick nylon leash, and sometimes a harness. I have been reading about prong collar, an wanted to know the benefits as well as at what age is safe to get one. She is almost 5 month, going on 16 years of age (I think she even asked about a drivers license, since she like to try to sit in my lap when I drive), and she weighs approximately 45lbs. Can you provide information.

[GenHannibal]

PJackson: 5 months is too young for a pinch. She just needs more training and your patience.

Wrath: were you just correcting your dog not to look or correcting him for breaking the command, i.e. sit or heel? Also, you may need to work in a more neutral area with him and make sure he understands what your commands are...as well as keeping focus on you. Use more neutral distractions. Like a toy or peice of food or a person to teach him what is expected. Then, use dog distractions, but at a distance. Gradually work him to where there is another dog nearby. This of course will take time.

[MyBellaBaby]

Hello wrath - the reason we got an e-collar was because of all the wonderful things trainers have said about them. Behavioral specialist too, she had the same problem and still does. Although now we can actual correct her without yelling and repeating ourselves. She does what you tell her the first time or she gets a zap. She learns very quickly - we are trying to overcome her tendency to chase and kill smaller animals now (cats, squirrels, birds). We have a cat that she looks at like a piece of meat and hopefully we will be able to have our cat visit us downstairs again. She has shown aggression towards other animals smaller than her so we are working on this. And I still say this collar works wonders. I don't like leashing her in our yard and the training is much easier when she is not under leash. She looks forward to putting the collar on in the morning because she knows that she is going out to have fun! She used to be on a run and she was soooo depressed. She is still new for us, but her training is a lot smoother and less repetitive than our last rott.

[Wrath]

Originally posted by GenHannibal
PJackson: 5 months is too young for a pinch. She just needs more training and your patience.

Wrath: were you just correcting your dog not to look or correcting him for breaking the command, i.e. sit or heel? Also, you may need to work in a more neutral area with him and make sure he understands what your commands are...as well as keeping focus on you. Use more neutral distractions. Like a toy or peice of food or a person to teach him what is expected. Then, use dog distractions, but at a distance. Gradually work him to where there is another dog nearby. This of course will take time.

He gets corrected when he breaks a command, and only after a warning when I see he's about to break. I try to get him to 'watch' in a long down stay or sit stay because he's much less likely to break if he's looking at me rather than looking around. I don't correct him if he's not watching, but I do give him a lot of verbal praise when he does or even if he just checks in.

Most of the time, these corrections are very mild, a slight pop on the lead and putting them back in position. The only times I give HARD corrections are when he's showing aggression toward another dog or is so distracted by something that I'm unable to regain his attention after minutes of coaxing, bribing, phyically turning him away, or even a series of increasingly severe corrections.

Indoors, he's rock solid. Outdoors he's solid unless there's distractions around, especially other dogs. I've found it difficult to gradually build up a tolerance to distractions because it's so extreme...either rock solid or complete disaster. I'll have to try some other people distractions or toy distractions.

[Wrath]

Originally posted by MyBellaBaby
Hello wrath - the reason we got an e-collar was because of all the wonderful things trainers have said about them. Behavioral specialist too, she had the same problem and still does. Although now we can actual correct her without yelling and repeating ourselves. She does what you tell her the first time or she gets a zap. She learns very quickly - we are trying to overcome her tendency to chase and kill smaller animals now (cats, squirrels, birds). We have a cat that she looks at like a piece of meat and hopefully we will be able to have our cat visit us downstairs again. She has shown aggression towards other animals smaller than her so we are working on this. And I still say this collar works wonders. I don't like leashing her in our yard and the training is much easier when she is not under leash. She looks forward to putting the collar on in the morning because she knows that she is going out to have fun! She used to be on a run and she was soooo depressed. She is still new for us, but her training is a lot smoother and less repetitive than our last rott.

The main reason I'm interested in an e-collar is that for the pinch corrections to be effective I have to really yank it and I'm starting to get concerned about long term damage to his neck or trachea. Ecollars seem like they would be much less damaging and just as effective for issuing corrections AND they could be used from a much longer distance than a 6 foot lead and with the dog completely off lead (great for correcting in off lead heeling or distant down-stays). I don't have any reservations about keeping him on lead, the electric collars just seem like they'd be less damaging than a prong.

Like I said before, I'm going to go with a tighter pinch, and try to keep it higher on his neck. Part of the problem is I noticed last night that from the top, Jaxom's neck is actually thicker near his head than it is where it meets his body.