remedial confidence building class for fear aggressive dog

[cpalenchar]

Okay--- as I mentioned in the behavior forum, I am currently enrolled in a class for dogs with nerve problems. I think I am the only one in the class with a dog that is actually fear aggressive--- but that is okay. :)

I will post my experiences with the class here--- and maybe someone can learn from them. That said--- I would encourage all of you to still seek out a competent trainer in your local area to work with you as well. I joined this class because I think someone with a skilled eye can watch my dog and provide *extremely* valuable info as to what I am doing right and wrong, and how to watch my dog and read her emotions. I have tried for some time (maybe 4 months) to follow advice from books/web/conversations to train my own dog. It's not enough. She is doing great in her obediance--- but we're not conquering the fear aggression. I fear others would have the same experience-- and that's why I urge you to read this, but also go seek out your own local trainer.

All that said--- I might not post more than this one post b/c as a rott (generally a high confidence breed)-- I think my dog has a bad mixture of low confidence/high confidence. The trainer mentioned in the first class that during the private evaluation (second class) some dogs are moved to the "rowdy rovers" class which is more for dogs who are aggressive from having too much confidence. I don't know if I will be moved or not--- but I think it might happen. :) I'll let you know. ;)

general notes:

this class is a "confidence building" class. It is my understanding that we are not going to give corrections for incorrect behavior, only correct the good behavior. Idea being rather than take away the dog's confidence by always telling it it's wrong-- increase confidence by telling it when it's right. [note-- this is (hopefully) different than being "over-nice" to an unconfident dog. Fearful dogs definitely need their owners to have expectations of them, and know how to meet those expectations--- that is what helps build their confidence]

The class is definitely rooted in clicker training. There was a clicker and notes about the process in our class "goodies" bag.

there will be no dog/dog or non-handler/dog interactions during the class. reason being these type of interactions might push the threshold of these unconfident dogs-- and we don't want that to happen. :)

and we won't really work on obedience as such--- not teaching sit/down type things. We'll be working on "watch me", go to "location", and "say hi" and maybe some other things.... idea being once your dog has gained some "confidence"-- you can go on to take a basic OB class.

week 1:

in class we all came without our dogs, and the instructor talked to us for the class period. She went over the basic philosophy of the class, and base rules. We also signed up for our meeting time for our private consultation.

homework is the "watch me" command. and the go to "location" command.

-"watch me" is being trained by sitting with the dog near you and click/treat whenever the dog makes eye contact. Then increasing the amount of time you expect eye contact. Then moving to different locations (slowly increasing distractions) and repeating. Only after all that introducing a command for the action.

- the go to "location" command meaning that you pick a rug/towel (something portable and approx dog size) that you can take with you and tell the dog to go there. The "location" being like a crate for your dog-- it knows to go there and remain there and nothing bad will happen to it. This is being trained by putting your rug/towel near your chair. Then click/treat as soon as the dog puts a paw on it. Then click/treat for getting 3 or 4 paws on it. Hmmm... didn't read the next step for that one in the homework yet. :)

that's all I can remember now.....

-chloe

oh yeah--- and I'll include a link to the thread talking about weak nerved dogs which contains (in my opinion) some very good discussion about what that phrase actually means. :) http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/sho...&threadid=9288

[tugger5000]

Same class we took Aedia to here in Columbus. We thought is was BS for the first few weeks until we noticed the change in her... By the end of the class she was the "star" pupil (out of 4 other dogs with issues)...

[Wrath]

Class sounds interesting, let us know how it goes. I'm also curious as to what they do in the 'rowdy rovers' class.

[DNeff]

Are you working with Teamworks in Raleigh?

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CDX OAC OJC OGC NA NAJ TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
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[Sharon Marples]

This is interesting! I'd love to hear your weekly reports on class activities and how your girl progresses.

Sharon

[cpalenchar]

dawn--- that would be an affirmative--- I would love any opinions you have on their program. I dunno-- PM might be most appriopriate for that info????? It is my first time working there....

(btw--- because of the holiday and the fact that the private consultations take two weeks--- I won't be going back until June 2. So-- the update will take a while to appear. :) )

-chloe

[Beckysmom]

Chloe:

This is interesting. Do keep us posted.

Please let's not get into another clicker v. not clicker war, but just as a comment, the "go to location"--which I know as a matstay, can be very easily taught by lure and reward to dogs who happen to do better with lure and reward system of training. (You either guide the dog to the mat with the lure, or throw the lure onto the mat. You could of course mark this with a click. Or "good dog". etc.)

It has been one of the most invaluable of trained skills my last several dogs had. Made going places like a restaurant, hotel, friend's house etc. very much more easy. Dog knows where to go, feels safe etc., no dog hair all over the place makes dog a more welcome guest in future, etc. And much easier to carry a rolled up mat for a big dog than a whole crate.

[lblax]

it doesnt sound bad the only part that worries me is if your dog has incorrect behaviour that they are going to let that go that is a big win for a dog with issues

[Beckysmom]

Larry, I was wondering about that too (letting go wrong behaviour). I know it was major problem for me and B. with our first "all positive all the time" no substantial training collar allowed in class etc. type trainer bad experience when B acted up and under rules there i could not correct it. (or CTJ). But then I thought maybe the way this group is set up with no contact between dogs or other people and any dog except dog's own handler it would be okay? ?? If they can really preclude that sort of thing.

kate

[Beckysmom]

chloe:

I don't know if you know what I was just referring to, but I had a huge problem with my dog when he got a successful uncorrected growl off in a very positive oriented type class.

I thought about this longer and wondered whether even if the animals are kept separated and not handled by people other than the owner handler, if they get to practice long distance threat displays uncorrected whether that itself is a problem.

Any of the more experienced than I am out there to comment on this?

Kate

[Judi W]

Philosophically, I believe it is just as dishonest not to tell a dog when it is wrong as it is not to tell them when they are right. It violates the premise of "don't lie to your dog"

[cpalenchar]

I haven't been to the class with the dog as of yet---- so I'm not sure how closely the trainer will toe the "no corrections" line. I do know she has been referred to me as someone who deals with dogs with aggression issues--- and the class is designed for those types of dogs. Yes people can maintain a program that doesn't work--- but usually not for very long....... and especially not without getting their name tarred if you take the time to ask about things. So... I'm keeping an open mind.

The positive experience is based more towards teaching the dog to "do" something as opposed to teaching the dog not to do something. Ex--- with the look command, praise is given for looking, but no punishment for not looking--- this is in the learning phase. I don't know what her opinions about the proofing and correction phase are--- but I haven't read anywhere of people encouraging corrections in the "learning" phase. Again... I think the class is based around teaching behaviors that are incompatible with fear behaviors--- so we are learning what to do and praising for that...... we'll see though....

-chloe

[Beckysmom]

What type of collar will the dog be wearing?

Kate

[jessaroo]

chloe-

Can't wait to see how this progresses. I see you're in Raleigh - wonder if your instructor knows of this same program in Charlotte. If you think it's helping you this could be just the thing for Kaiser!!

[valdes43]

The class sounds great with the exception of one thing. I do believe you also need to tell the dog what's wrong, like Judi said. They are teaching you counterconditioning and desesitization methods for your dog and soon enough, if the situations right, your dog will have a higher threshold to aggression.

It's going to take a long time to generalize and countercondition this to many dogs. And ultimately when the dog is really aroused and surprised because you didn't have control of your environment (which can easily happen) then the ultimate goal of aggression is keeping the dog under control. So in the case of dog aggression you must expose your dog to scenarios that can potentially arouse him by surprise and if there's not some type of inhibition work done then he will not know that he can actually contain himself and redirect his behavior to something much more acceptable.

I'm sure you'll learn a lot from the class but I don't think it's a complete one.

The tough part is that only a few people know how to apply the methods correctly. So if the combination is applied incorrectly then you can potentially condition behavior that you don't desire.