What should be used as a (serious) correction???

[ScoobyJames]

Just following a thread on dominance and growling at people when in the down position......

Lots of comments from (senior) memebers / trainers about giving the dog a serious correction / making sure the dog knows never to do XXX again.....

I`m feeling that some more direct advice would be useful;

What exactly constitutes a correction that the dog will never forget?

I assume the pro`s on here would advocate never striking / causing pain as a correction.

How exactly is a prong collar that will cause pain / discomfort any different. I know Rotties are big tough dogs etc etc but a hard pull on a lead by a 6ft, 100kg adult is a pretty powerful act - on a normal collar, let alone a prong collar (same as `training` collar???).

Not trying to be `difficult` just playing devil`s advocate and interested.

Thanks.

[Judi W]

The reason why you will rarely see an actual forumla or description of "serious" is that it is dependent upon the individual dog. The person who has the dog up close and personal has to evaluate what will make a lasting impression on that dog and it should not be done long distance. I don't know why you assume that a serious correction would not involve pain. It should never involve "injury" but that is not the same as no pain. "Darling I wish you wouldn't do that" does not prove very effective for serious infractions and I consider aggression of the most serious nature. Some dogs will rethink and respond to a good yelling at - sound and fury. Others are going to require that their self-interest be redirected to avoiding the physical discomfort of - yes, pain that results from the infraction. A truly serious correction is not something that should be used frivolously or on whim. It is for egregious infractions.

We are not talking about training, but behavior. Corrections as implied by a training discussion involve a collar pop for place/attention. A serious correction for aggression is an entirely different thing. Dogs do not put themselves at risk any more than any other species.

[Carina43]

As a corollary to this, what does anyone think of using a little squirt of Bitter Apple or vinegar/water etc? One of the trainers where I go has people use this on dogs that lunge or get stupid with other dogs in class.

It really seems effective, the couple of times I've seen her do it! After the first time, the dogs take one look at the spray bottle and decide to behave quite nicely.

[lblax]

judi is right that it is differant for each dog.... and it depends on what the dog is doing at the time example a friend has a rott that with a prong collar on when he just walks to the end of the leash or the slightest pop he really yelps a hard correction on this dog may do several things it may shut him down entirally he is a soft dog.. another example my dog is a hard dog he responds to a pop on the leash for correction during normal behaviors and obediance training but when there is a major infraction occurring a pop on the leash even a hard one means absolutly nothing to him on certain occasions ive had to give him severe 2 handed hard corrections to get a response. each dog has its threshold of what it is willing to endure to acomplish his own little goal.. with strong working dogs you must be up to the challenge of the response they may have the soft dog may shut down or may out of pain come back on you .... the hard dog will either accept this correction our he may come back at you with the attitude im still gonna do it nip at you and try the behavior again and this is the point where if you let him succeed you will not only lose this battle but you will start losing the war

[ScoobyJames]

I agree that there is no `universal` set of actions and it does depend on the individual.

How do you know you are affecting there lookout overal Vs how they act when YOU are there.

ie you are masking the behaviour because the dog is afraid of you rather than learning that the behaviour is unacceptable overal. For example a dog that would not display aggression when on lead with the owner (because he knows whats coming) but will still be nasty when free. So you not really changing the behaviour just hiding it in certain circumstance.

I`ve always thought that, especially with Rotties, you need to turn the actual though process over not just make the dog scared of a given situation....................

[lblax]

Originally posted by Carina43
As a corollary to this, what does anyone think of using a little squirt of Bitter Apple or vinegar/water etc? One of the trainers where I go has people use this on dogs that lunge or get stupid with other dogs in class.

It really seems effective, the couple of times I've seen her do it! After the first time, the dogs take one look at the spray bottle and decide to behave quite nicely.

i think its a dumb idea

[Carina43]

Originally posted by lblax
i think its a dumb idea

Why?
Not arguing, just curious.

[lblax]

Originally posted by ScoobyJames
. For example a dog that would not display aggression when on lead with the owner (because he knows whats coming) but will still be nasty when free. So you not really changing the behaviour just hiding it in certain circumstance.

i think a dog with this kind of attitude towards aggression should never be free

[ScoobyJames]

I`m not saying I have a dog like this just trying to throw up some examples.

A dog will behave differently depending on who is `in charge` at the time. So I might be able to walk and control the difficult dog but maybe my wife (all for example only!!) would not. Have you really affected the behaviour, IMHO you havn`t......

Tricky but interesting.......!!

[Skip]

Originally posted by Carina43
As a corollary to this, what does anyone think of using a little squirt of Bitter Apple or vinegar/water etc? One of the trainers where I go has people use this on dogs that lunge or get stupid with other dogs in class.

It really seems effective, the couple of times I've seen her do it! After the first time, the dogs take one look at the spray bottle and decide to behave quite nicely.

I wouldn't use it. Proper leash..proper collar..proper correction will work. That's what I always have on the dog. That's WHY I have it on the dog.

[Judi W]

When a dog is fully involved and its emotions are high, which is what we are discussing, a squirt bottle is not going to be effective. It's the equivalent of "oh, darling......."

For less emotional issues, some use the squirt bottle instead of using their voice "ahhhahhh" to redirect attention. I prefer to be personally involved in any corrections so my dog knows exactly who he'd better be thinking of pleasing. Just a personal choice. I also prefer not to be dependent upon carrying a bottle, or clicker or.......... I always have a poop bag, treats, collar and leash and usually a dumbell, gloves etc. and my voice.

I think it is too often people who do not want to assert themselves with their dogs that avoid being personal in their corrections. This is not particularly a good thing.

[rott&pitincali]

I learned while in classes with Sadie, that after time they will relearn their action with a harsh correction. ie: bad action correction with prong collar, bad action correction with prong again. After a while the dog learns that they dont want the correction, thus relearning action. From what I understood it is just like teaching them any other obedience command. They remember the correction, and dont want it to happen.

[Storm]

I think we have to be fair to our dogs in many ways. Many times through incorrect development we allow our dogs to start going in all sorts of negative directions from day one, escalating as time goes by and then we expect to hit the brakes and climb in with serious corrections. Unfortunately this arises unknowingly many times as many people unfortunately through lack of experience, miss all the signs or just lack in the developmental stages. With correct, fair rearing, correct handler dog attitude, motivational aspects we simplify the "issue" very much where we by been more in tune with the dog are able to apply "corrective" methods with greater success and quicker responses from the dog. So make sure you are and have been correct in your ways firstly and by doing all that and been in tune with your dog, you will administer and know just how much is necessary. As the saying goes "how much is enough?...................JUST ENOUGH! It becomes a very personalized issue between you your dog and the development of various facets surrounding you and the dog.

Actually very simple.......................;)

[Bucky's Mom]

Originally posted by Storm
I think we have to be fair to our dogs in many ways.

That is the WORST mistake I had to break myself of. - Sometimes it was ok for Bucky to pull on the leash as a puppy (because we were "just out for a stroll") and other times here I am jerking him and saying "no pull" because he is trying to tell "me" where we are going.

Now I TRY to be honest and fair and CONSISTANT - if it isn't ok on Monday - it isn't ok on Tuesday either.

Oh - as far as a harsh correction:

NO TV!!! (LOL)

[Carina43]

Judi, thanks for your clarification on the squirt bottle issue - I've never used it but it seemed effective the couple of times I've seen it done. Perhaps, again, it depends on the dog!

And Storm & others who point out that it's fair to deliver the most effective correction necessary consistently, right from the start. Like Bucky's Mom, I wasn't firm enough with Cooper when he was younger - it was the first time I'd had a dog with dog-aggression issues, and I dithered a bit on the right way to handle it. (Partly because I was listening to a couple of different trainers, each with different approaches, I wasn't being consistent.) I lost some time. With Dutch I came down much harder, and he smartened up very well, and quickly too! :)

Boy, I learn something new with every dog. By the time I'm 90, perhaps I'll be getting it right the first time. :p