Is it supposed to get worse before it gets better?

[JeanT]

I have my first young (1+ years) rescue rottie. He has a wonderful temperment, friendly to other dogs and children, but lacking in training.

I decided to start with private lessons first. They started today. Despite all of the reading on here, trying to do it in real life is entirely confounding.

First, the trainer does not use a choke collar, only a flat collar. I like that concept. Second, she believes in knee in the chest, really hard, with a leash pop, for jumping. I do not like that. (One of the corrections she gave him was really hard, and he yelped as he was twisted around and down. She is a very powerful woman. She said that rotties' neck muscles are very powerful and cannot be hurt -- I assume she means only on a flat collar, because I know that it is possible to cause damage with a choker collar.) She believes in NILIF, the concept of which sounded fine, but I don't know about the execution, her version.

Cody is to remain on leash, attached to me, at all times. If not, he is to be in his crate. He is to have no food whatsoever, except in response to a properly executed command. That means I am to keep his Canidae, or pieces of raw beef or ground turkey, in my hand (or available with me) at all times.

The Canidae is small kibble and falls out of the trainer's closed hand as well as mine. In the hour's time we went through 1 1/2 pounds of small pieces of raw beef and about a pound of raw ground turkey. I got about a third of Cody's regular daily amount of Canidae in him. He vomited everything about an hour later. I relented, probably ruining the training, and fed him his usual evening bowl of Canidae. (He eats twice a day.)

At the end of the training hour, Cody collapsed and fell asleep, exhausted.

When he awoke we went into the back yard, unleashed (I'm not supposed to leash him there for the time being and not to give any commands off leash for now.) Then we went for a walk. During all of the time that he has been awake since the trainer left, Cody has been a lot more challenging and poorly behaved than he had been before the training session. The walking was awful. He pulled constantly. Before, he pulled at the beginning of a walk and then rarely when we did the rest of the walk. Before the session I could tell him to "go lie down" or "take a break" and he would go lie down on the hearth or on the flagstone in the foyer and go to sleep. After the session, he just stands there and stares (stubbornly, not agressively) at me.

Is it usual to have worse behavior after a training session than before, because the dog is under tight control when before he was so-so? Am I being overly concerned with his behavior because he seems unhappy and to like me less?

And I want to feed him twice a day, still. He would always sit nicely and wait for the food bowl to be put down. The trainer says he must be very hungry to be trained. So am I ruining the training plan to feed him?

[chuss]

Sounds like your trainer needs new drugs!

I used the knee method, but I would just hold it up when she started bolting for me. She jumped a couple of times, then she realised that if she jumps, she'll meet my knee. Now, she doesn't jump at all.

As for the food, try cheese or biscuits. If you're trainer is still strong headed about it, then find a new trainer.

[Rott-Wiley]

Well, it's real important that you are comfortable with the trainer and their methods. Not every method is right for every dog. I feed my dog twice a day and she works for food without having to go to NILIF plan. Maybe if you discuss the issues with the trainer she could explain why she is using the methods she is.

Is there a group lesson available in your area? I've found them to be an excellent way to not only train your dog but also get him socialized.

A good rule of thumb is that if it doesn't seem like the right thing to do, chances are it isn't. But maybe she saw something in your dogs behavior that you haven't. It's hard to say without actually evaluating the dog.

[Judi W]

Good grief!!! Here you have a perfectly sweet, nice dog and an instructor who is too "kind" hearted to use a standard training collar, but doesn't mind at all trying to break his sternum or do him an injury. Wow, I'm really impressed.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this sort of thing really irritates me. It's like a trainer around here who used to advertise "never, never hit your dog" but we knew he didn't hesitate to string one up at the slightest provocation. I am not impressed with this false humane type of training.

A slip collar used properly with a quick pop and release does not damage a dog. If an instructor does not know how to do this and how to teach it, I would suspect a very poor and limited background. A flat collar cannot and does not give a correction, it simply pulls on the dog. Training bait is not given by the handful. Something special and tasty is given one piece for each correct action and after several a jackpot can be given along with the treats is a "good boy, how clever you are". The teathering also sounds quite unnecessary. What is that supposed to accomplish?

Is he housebroken? If so, there is no reason for the teathering. Of course he is behaving worse. That training session and the aftermath suggested program must be incredibly stressful. He has no idea what he did wrong to deserve such treatment. Since he is basically kind and happy and assuming he is decently behaved in the house, he should be allowed to have some breathing time and to be able to be in your company relaxed. It has got to be very hard on the dog to be drug every step you take. No lying peacefully and watching. No exploring or looking at what might be interesting.

Well, that is my top of mind reaction to what you have described.

[JeanT]

S**t, there goes my non-refundable $300. This woman was recommended by a trainer who had been recommended by my vet. (The vet is super with all kinds of dogs. The trainer he recommended no longer gives private lessons.) Cody is still recovering from a severe pneumonia and the vet will not give him a rabies shot until he is sure Cody's immune system - he is still on clindamycin and clinically is doing fine - can handle it. So he cannot do group lessons.)

This ("my") trainer told me on the phone that she trains and handles SAR dogs and believes only in positive reinforcement. I thought *I* was going to vomit when she gave him the second (the really hard one) knee and pop. Cody hadn't jumped for several days. he doesn't blink when the mailman comes. He did go kind of nuts ( exciteable nuts, not aggression) when this woman came to the door.

Constant on leash in the house and no food is supposed to make him know that I am his "lifeline". He is housebroken. He has had free roam of most of the house for over a week. Repeatedly stealing the toilet paper is the worst he has done. He hasn't done that for several days. About a week ago he jumped on my back while I was bending over and he knocked my down. Before I could turn around to yell at him, he had run full speed through the living room, around the kitchen corner, and put himself into the crate.

I felt he was very stressed by this lesson and what I was doing afterwards on her instruction. But I didn't know whether I was being a wuss (is that a bad word?) because I know that I am toooo "kind hearted" which I know is not the way to be effective in training.

[Judi W]

Well, everyone knows I am not a wuss when it comes to training, however, I was appalled at your description. I find the "no corrections" nonsense and "oh, how kind I am" gratuitious and self serving and not at all a favor to the dog. I believe it is unfair and gives ambigious messages to the dog and in the long run results in much harsher measures than would be needed had the dog had a fair trainer that both showed the dog what was desired, rewarded generously especially during the teaching phase, was generous with stress relief during training sessions and realized that the goal is to develop a partnership with the owner being the leader in the dance. This woman appears to have a formula and little else. I too suggest a training club, preferably one that serves the community for pet training and also prepares its members for trials which is where the rubber hits the road as far as competence of training is concerned. The goal is to "teach" the dog, not abuse it and anyone who believes that abuse must be physical is simply wrong.

A good instructor loves and enjoys dogs and does not consider them an enemy to be defeated. You have a very nice boy. Give him a break.

See if you can get a refund. Good heavens, you don't join health clubs too do you? Anyway, you should consider letting your vet and the referral person know that you are not happy with the referral and they should reconsider. Don't train with someone who does not or has not recently trialed their own dogs. I know that sounds simple minded, however I am seeing too many people set themselves up as trainers, charging high prices and they don't even own their own dog that will come first time it is called. Couldn't train a dog to the CD level if their life depended upon it.

[Rott-Wiley]

I'm not surprised at the non-refundable $300 -- that says a lot in itself. It sounds like you have a great boy in this dog and would be a horrible shame to ruin him with the wrong methods. No matter what, cut you losses now and do what's best for the both of you.

[JeanT]

I was a little surprised that the trainer did not want to watch me with Cody for a little while to determine my level of incompetence and Cody's level of competence..

The trainer imports GSDs from Europe for her SAR dogs. Maybe they are "harder'. Maybe she assumes this one is "hard". He's not. She had her dogs in Oklahoma City and was on the first team at the Trade Center. She raised those dogs from puppies. She said they never went through any chewing or biting stages because she had them as puppies. She said that second hand dogs come with a lot of issues.

Chuss, she said that the knee had to be brought with force into the chest of the jumping dog. Just blocking is not enough. She is 5'9 or 10" and weighs at least 200 pounds. She did not want me to hold Cody's leash and try to correct him when he jumped. She eanted to be the one to correct him.

I took Cody for another walk. He was pulling a lot, going the same route that we took after the session. I turned him around and went a different route, and he quickly went back to a nice pace without pulling. He's done a few sits, downs and "look at me's" since we've come back. All off leash. All nicely done.

I'm probably going to take him to the vet tomorrow for a check. His breathing is OK when he is sitting up, but when he falls asleep lying down, he is "snorry" and starts choking. Maybe getting forcefully banged in the chest, following the pneumonia, is a problem. I'll watch him through the night.

JudyW, I looked on the internet for clubs in my area a few years ago and two months ago. The only possibility that I found was a SchH club. I'll call the person who is listed as the local honcho for here.

I used to join health clubs. Now I can say that I used to sign up for dog training lessons. The "non-refundable" was made clear in the first telephone call. I did not consider that a problem because of the source of the referral.

[rotts and roses]

I'd like to give that trainer a sharp knee to the chest! was she aware that he was recoperating from pnuemonia? what was she thinking??? shakes my head **Okay I feel better, poor Cody, poor you, I hope at the very least she refunds your money,

[Judi W]

Where are you located? How did you do your search? Did you search the AKC website? They have a geographical list of clubs. Even if they don't show an obedience club (not likely) they will show an all breed club. Then you contact them, ask them to refer you to their member that chairs obedience or who competes and take it from there.

[JeanT]

Thank you, Judi. I may try it that way. Right now I'm thinking I may just try to train him in my own uneducated way from what I've read here. How can I tell if I'd get another bad trainer? It's hard to believe that my vet holds the referring trainer in such high regard, yet that trainer refers all requests for private lessons to this woman. For all I know, the first woman uses the same methods. I would not have thought my vet would like someone like that because he is very sensitive to ALL kinds of dogs' behaviors and gets great responses from them with his voice and little treats. (He's treated several dogs I know, a few of which are not vet freindly, yet he has never even used a muzzle.)

Yes, Rotts and Roses. I told her he was out of the hospital for a week (actually, it's 11 days) after a bad case of pneumonia from the shelter and that he is still on clindamycin. That he'd lost 15+ pounds and was still getting his strength back. He has regained some weight. The bag of kibble that I had for training is what he eats for dinner. The trainer said his weight is fine and that I should be feeding him about 2/3 of the amount in the bag for the whole day.

Cody got up for potty this AM and did eat his kibble, but he is sleeping again. A little snorry, not as bad as last night. He is not interested in his toys. This is different behavior for him. I'm going to call the vet and have him checked.

[Judi W]

Most vets are very kind. They are not dog trainers. If someone told them they trained in the most humane manner, never never used a training collar, etc. they would say "oh, good trainer"..... as you can see, that is utter nonsense. If you want a referral, you ask someone who has happy, trained dogs and generally , someone who competes. I know a few vets that train and show, but darn few. That is not their area.

The obedience clubs are not expensive. They have classes at many levels and many instructors. They are training "in the open" so to speak where all can see and not behind closed doors. Club training classes can stand scrutiny by the public.

[Rott-Wiley]

GSDs have a really different personality then most rotties. A well bred GSD can tolerate a lot more abusive techniques then a rottie. The methods that are typically employed on them are meant to be for a rapid turnover so they can get on with their intended job. This in no way means they are smarter, just in some ways, more forgiving.

If I were you, I really would try to find a dog club in the area (not the SchH club) and get involved in their classes.

[legalbeagle]

Jean, that's an appallingly abusive "trainer". Run for your dog's life and your own mental health. I echo everything Judy W. has stated and second the part about your letting the referral persons know how horribly wrong the "trainer" was and how she mistreated your dog and by extension, you.

You are entitled to a refund, and that part about 'non-refundable' is bull****. There's no legal weight behind it and in fact, this "trainer" could arguably owe you more than that anyway.

Here are some tips to use to get your $300.00 back:

1. Compose a short fact filled letter to this creep such as the one below [an example, not legal advice!]. Use non-accusatory but firm language". Make sure to number, date and address each page [e.g., "Page 1 of X; Ms.__________; Date]

Start with something like this:

[Insert date]

VIA CERTIFIED MAIL, RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED:
NUMBER: ______________________________________________

[Name of Trainer]
[Address of Trainer]
[City, State, Zip}

Re: In the matter of "Cody", a one year old Rottweiler & the contract to provide training to dog and owner

Ms. X:

Pertaining to my contract with you to provide to my dog Cody [a Rottweiler] and myself positive reinforcement training, I'm hereby notifying you that I'm extremely displeased with the session after observing what I firmly believe is not positive reinforcement training, and is in fact poor and abusive mishandling of my dog. It is my belief that you have breached the contract I had with you, and failed to provide the training and expertise promised and you have abused my dog in the process. He will be examined by a vet to determine if you damaged his chest or lungs with your aggressive knee punches to his sternum and if so, I will be holding you responsible for veterinary costs and expenses. As you are well aware, the dog is recouperating from a bad lung illness and has lost considerable body weight and is not at full strength or proper body weight.

During our initial conversation and your visit to my home, you claimed that you provided positive reinforcement training to search and rescue dogs and other dogs. [Fill in any other details of actual promises and claims she made, using only factual statements.]

I explained to you that my dog, Cody is a very friendly, non-aggressive one year old dog who was temperamentally sound and enthusiastic. He is fully housebroken. He has shown no objectional or aggressive behavior other than his friendly jumping to greet us and guests. I requested and you promised a "positive reinforcement" training experience. That is not what we received. Since our session with you, Cody has experienced vomiting and been afraid to approach me with affection. Cody was physically mishandled and harmed by you.

During the session, I was shocked and disappointed to witness your old-fashioned and largely discredited methodology. I've consulted briefly with other experienced Rottweiler owners and a well respected trainer with decades of Rottweiler experience and have been advised to discontinue allowing you any access to my dog as it might cause him permanent and negative physical, behavior and temperament changes.

Due to the promises you made to me prior to my observing your actual methodology which is in conflict with your verbal promises and assurances, I provided you with the full fee of $300.00. You misrepresented your methods to me, and assuranced me that you were qualified to train my dog and myself in a method I find acceptable. I am not, nor have I ever been, interested in causing my dog physical pain and frightening him, nor in allowing any other party to do so to my dog, which you have done. Since observing your mishandling and abuse of Cody, it is obvious to me that you do not intend to fulfill your contractual promises to me, promises which induced me to provide to you the fee of $300.00.

At this time, I am hereby requiring you to return to me the full fee of $300.00 [three hundred dollars] in the form of a certified check or money order, by no later than close of business May 10, 2003.

It is my conviction that you breached the contract I made with you, and that you have damaged my dog to the extent that he suffered vomiting and fear based reactions after your "advice" and the mishandling by you.

If you do not comply with this requirement to return my full payment of $300.00, I am prepared to file a complaint against you in the Small Claims Court of our jurisdiction and to file an animal abuse charge against you with the local authorities. I am prepared to have a truly qualified dog trainer, who actually practices "positive reinforcement" training, act as an expert witness. I am prepared to ask the judge for damages in the form of an amount equal to the fee I paid to you.

Do not contact me via telephone or visit my home. You may communicate with me only in writing to the address noted below.

For the record, let me state that I believe the following actions on your part in handling Cody were inappropriate, abusive and unnecessary:

i)

ii)

iii)

iv)

Failure to provide me with a full and complete refund will result in immediate legal action against you.

Sincerely,

Jean T.________________
Address:
City, State, Zip:

certified, return receipt requested mail

********************************************

Jean, maybe this can guide you in composing this letter. Remember to remain calm and to not write an angry letter, even if you believe that your anger is justified. I certainly feel anger at this ridiculous animal abuser.

What you do is up to you, but it is not necessary to be penalized $300.00 on top of suffering the indignities that woman heaped on the dog and you by extension. Her "expertise" with GSDs doesn't qualify her to train a Rottweiler. Don't beat yourself up too much, just take a few proactive steps and you might be surprised at how much better you feel.

Whatever you do, do NOT engage in verbal sparring with this woman on the phone. Do not accept calls from her and do not let yourself be in the position of later defending against claims she might make of things you might not have said. Anyway, what's left to be said? She's incompetent and abusive to dogs.

Enuf said.

Cathi M.

[Beckysmom]

In my opinion, apologize deeply and profusely to your poor dog, and find a new trainer. To me that sounds so egregious that I am not even going to go into what seemed wrong with what you describe.

Meanwhile, as you look for a more suitable trainer, follow the NILIF rules as posted by DNeff on this board. Try some of the ideas on this board for not jumping up, and get a few of the best training books.

My recs for what you describe your situation to be: (titles may be not quite or author spelling but at least close). And I would get all of these ASAP and start reading. Together they present a range of what seems reasonable to me. I would read them right away, both because they can help you to start training on your own and also because they can help you to evaluate how good a trainer is. And try to watch a trainer with other dogs before you subject your own to the experiment.

April Frost's: Beyond Obedience
Ian Dunbar's How to Teach a New Dog Old Tricks
Brian Kilcommon's Good Owners Great Dogs

and for general reading
Suzanne Clothier's If....[something] Bones would Fall from the Sky