doggy playdates issues

[Beckysmom]

This relates to training.

For reasons mostly not at all his fault (one move, one health problem), B has no dog in the neighborhood to play with anymore. He is desperately eager to play with another dog, and is having increasing trouble therefore with hyperness around other dogs at training class. (He was already too hyper, but it was improving and is now backsliding horribly. He does not actually participate with the other dogs but only works at a distance because of his hyper behaviour. However, he had worked up to being able to work by them at about 10 feet away from nearest dogs, and now is back to, uh, 50 feet :( )

Yesterday one of the GSDs who was offleash dashed over to B, and though the two were rapidly separated, B could not settle down again at all, not even at 50 feet. B's best days at class had been when he was able to play shortly before class with one of the two neighborhood dogs which are no longer available. It seemed like once his need for dog play was satisfied he could settle down to work, and while different dogs were still exciting it was not a constant, dog! dog! dog!, oh KAte, look there's a DOG!

I am trying to figure out to what degree I should try to find playmates for B, and how to go about doing that under the circumstances. (I thought of asking the owner of the GSD, since both dogs looked happy to meet each other, but the owner looked terrified that my guy would eat his guy.)


B can no longer play with our Aussie shepherd neighbor, because she tried to dominate him and tell him where he could walk and breathe, and while a month ago B accepted that, he has now decided he is dominant. At their last meeting she was the one to roll over on back, no one hurt or bit anyone, but her owners are afraid that maybe, since he is so big, she would get hurt.

There are 2 (male and female pair) potential playmate entlebuchers on a farm about 5 miles away. Again, the dogs are a lot smaller than B, so again there is the issue of his huge size and could they be hurt even if he only means to play. But unlike many people the owners of those dogs are less intimidated by B's size, and apparently it is another breed like the rottweiler that has historically been a cattle drover. Also I don't know if they might gang up on him as a pair or because it would be at their home turf, or whether all three would play nicely. He won't initiate a fight, but I think he will fight back if another dog starts it. I don't know much about the dogs at all either individually or as a breed. The play date would be there, not here, on those dogs' home territory. And there are lots of other distractions there that could be a problem--goats, chickens, etc. But we don't have a good option for a neutral territory for the dogs, so if I want to try that, it has to be their place. It is fenced at least--many acres in the fence which might be good if the dogs needed to separate themselves. Bad if I had trouble with his recalling. Or if he headed at full throttle toward the goat area. the one thing that might be alterable is that it might be possible for him to meet just one of the two dogs at a time--whichever is more likely to be friendly and playful, not both dogs.

Any opinions on the specific idea of the entlebuchers, or on getting playmates for dogs (esp big intimidating looking dogs) in general?

(Bodhi who is right here "says" ;) that he wants you to tell me that I should get him a doggy brother or sister to play with ASAP. But I am not getting another untrained dog anytime very soon--not till he is trained up, and even then probably not right away. )

[Judi W]

I know your past experience leads you to believe that Mr. B's over-excited attention in class can be tended to by playing with other dogs, but I can also see the other side of it. The fact that he went after a bitch during a play session, even if she was telling him when he could breath and when he could not, indicates to me that his doggy social skills are very lacking. Mother nature dictates that the bitches boss the boys, but that the boys, ever hopeful of future favors, take it.

Anyway, if it were I with the other dog, and I saw Bodhi behaving with such little self control, I would elect out of letting my dogs play with him as well. Sorry, if that sounds mean, but a dog that pitches such a fit that he cannot be within 50 feet of another dog and behave like he has any brains would not be one I want to mix my dogs with. When dogs are playing, they have to be amenable to a verbal caution from their owners if one starts over-doing the pushiness with another. If you can't get his attention when you have a leash and collar on, it holds little hope for free playing.

If he were mine, I'd up his training seriously so that he learns some self-control. I've only had about two instances where I asked a handler to stay back from the class group a bit and then that was only about 10 or 12 feet and lasted no more than a couple of weeks until the handler learned to control the dog and the dog learned its limits. It is possible that you need another instructor that will coach you on how to manage the dog. I don't see the problem as a lack of playmates, but rather the lack of control. Dogs really don't need playmates and it is not other dogs that are going to train him. Just roll up your sleeves and get a handle on him before he becomes totally unwelcomed in group settings. When he is able to demonstrate that he as some sense around other dogs perhaps then you can find a playmate bitch for him. If not, it is fine. He won't die of it.

A caution about the 3 dog games. If he acts up, you are correct that the two of him might seriously put him away and you could see some real injuries on all sides. Cancel that idea. His dog-dog greetings are probably very rude with him plowing right into the other dog and they are not going to consider that "play".

[Carina43]

Well I just have one question - what the heck is an entlebucher??

Sorry I'm not very helpful, I guess Judi said it all. Good luck with him! There's a Golden bitch in Dutch's class who is like Bodhi, she just goes absolutely beserk with very little stimulation. I feel for the handler, but she is making slow progress.

[Luvs]

Originally posted by Carina43
Well I just have one question - what the heck is an entlebucher??S

I was wondering the same thinghttp://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-013.gif

[Beckysmom]

Judi W: I will take your suggestions about avoiding the entlebuchers!

I am not sure about the issue of the class though.

I know you can't train over internet, but could you give any sense of what you would do (or ask an owner to do) to curb the hyper stuff?

And any comments re his class would be appreciated--I'll describe more below.

Re his class:

I think his current trainer is excellent, and B has gone from literally climbing the walls and onto roofs, to comparative mellowness. Though clearly he has been less mellow this last week.

Incidentally it was his third time at that particular location, and the first time there since April 5th.

Due to missing a lot of time during his surgery and post surgery period, he has gone to 7 group sessions total so far. His trainer Ken would like me to start taking him to as many sessions per week as I can, since he thinks that will help (no charge, so it is not a suggestion to benefit his pocket book.)

I was not asked specifically to stand back from class any particular distance, but rather to let B work where he can be calm and give good attention most of the time, and then to move him right into the edge of his zone of no longer so calm. To correct for failure to follow commands, but not directly for being hyper per se. And, equally importantly, I am supposed to work on my own calmness in the midst of distractions as well. B is not the only dog working at the outskirts of class, and Ken sometimes sends his wife or some of the more advanced human/dog pairs to work their dogs near us. That means B has successfully worked near maybe 4 dogs max at close quarters. (class seems to have anywhere from about 20 to 40 dogs at any one time) Also, our ten feet away from main activity of class spot is often right by where Ken's dogs wait during the class, and that does not seem to be a problem for B.

Both classes are outdoors in the midst of high level distractions--a dog that can perform well there can probably perform most anywhere. The one we were at yesterday has a garden center, trains, traffic, kids, puppies, pedestrians (that is, there are puppies and kids and people not associated with the class)....

The other is in a parking lot behind the training office. The lot lies between a busy street and a bridge over a river that is the connection for bikes, and pedestrian traffic to get from the business section of town to the residential section, with a little greenbelt along a river. In addition it is right next to a place where kids do acrobatic skateboarding in adjoining parking lot area. It also has staff and customers going in and out of a bike shop, petsupply store, and several other businesses, not to mention ducks taking off and landing from the river, and people playing with balls and dogs along the greenbelt.

It is hard to imagine a more distracting venue for a class. The distraction is made into part of the training. --If things get too calm in the surrounding real world it looks like Ken the trainer goes and gets things to be more distracting for the dogs, like kicking garbage cans around, running vacuum cleaner and so on. Even when Bodhi is out 50 feet he is having to deal with way more distraction than I have ever seen in a training class environment--including petsmart and public park type venues.

My inclination is to think this is good for B, but I may be wrong. In everyday life situations he is getting better and better overall--with occasional backslides.

It is officially an intermediate to advanced class with dogs at all different levels.--and sometimes working on different skills at the same time. When following along with what the main group of other dogs are doing, but at our distance, he is able to work at the level of the low intermediate dogs. And B seems to love it and not to care that he is one of the outskirts of class dogs.


Play:
His play initiation is usually playbows, not plowing into other dog. He is usually pretty good around other dogs when off leash--far better off than on. In fact, sometimes when the leash comes off it seems like he is no longer interested in the other dogs at all. If "Thunder" who has actually met him in context with other dogs reads this, some feedback would be appreciated! He and Thunder were fine together (one of the dogs where once he was offleash, he was not much interested), but only place for them to meet was dog park and I don't want B in dogparks now, even when used as a meeting place with a specific dog. Too many problems with random other dogs.

He didn't plow into the Aussie at the start of the incident, but rather appeared to be heading toward her teenager boy owner and soliciting attention, (she "resource guards" the boy such that nonfamily humans also can't approach him when she is around --her people think it is "cute". ) she snapped at B.

But that happened twice before and B had merely withdrawn or lay down--though not a rollover. This time the aussie ended up on her back instead. It may also be significant that this last time the Aussie was on B's turf--while previously they were at the Aussie's place. He had been onleash for a walk, but I had let him off at the request of the Aussie's owners. Both dogs recalled out of the situation, and then we split into two groups of people, one dog in each group.

You mentioned boys vis a vis bitches. B is now a neutered male. I am trying to recall whether he was ever clearly submissive to the Aussie since the neutering. I am not sure.

[Beckysmom]

Go to www.entlebucher.com . I think if you were to follow the link from there to the Eagleheart dogs that those are my 5 mile away neighbors' dogs.

They are apparently dogs with rottweiler toughness and border collie all day herding stamina, as the owner tried to explain it to me.

Now you know as much as I do!!!

[Beckysmom]

Addendum to already overlong explanation about the in class situation--in re the GSD who came over to Bodhi.

Both dogs were on a "break" at the time. Bodhi had been calmly watching 3 children and puppies playing in front of our car when the GSD dashed between us and the kids and puppies. The GSD owner hadn't noticed right away that his dog was no longer beside him, and it had headed toward the open gate out of the facility where there is a road with fast traffic. People were yelling at him to call his dog (maybe that was why he looked scared). Then when he did call the dog it veered over to Bodhi instead of recalling to the owner.

I followed previous instructions to hang on to Bodhi's leash securely, but not to convey tension down it, while the GSD owner got his dog back. B's trainer had told me that if I convey any tension to him in such situation the dog thinks it is the situation that is making me tense, and thus he gets tense--which is worse than hyper excited. (Ordinarily I would have been supposed to walk B in some other direction than the distraction, and get him into a snappy heel with some hairpin turns and make him pay attention to me, but I was cornered against my own car with the two dogs blocking the way out into the open where we could have done that. )

Would you tend to agree or disagree with that approach? The result was two happy bouncy dogs. If there was an approach that would have yielded two happy CALM dogs that would have been better. (or at least my guy to be calm)

Judi or anyone else with any ideas?

Kate

[Judi W]

Well, I'm just going to give you some random impressions, and you choose anything you think might "fit".

If when he is actually interacting with the other dogs he does so well and politely, then I would have to speculate that his acting out when on lead with you is him challenging your authority to keep him from doing what he wants. Solution - up your requirement of his compliance to your instructions and of course, the praise when he does.

Classes. I am opposed to beginning dogs working in proofing situations. Proofing should be done in the ring ready and advanced classes, not with dogs who don't have a handle on the work yet. There is nothing admirable about an instructor who is introducing extreme distractions with beginning dogs, it simply contributes to the confusion and increases the amount of corrections necessary - neither of which is desireable. Idealy, one should train for success and with as few corrections as possible. I would also question whether you are not attending a class that is beyond your dog's skill level. Mr. B should be in a beginner level class that is run calmly and without ducks and garbage cans beking kicked around.

More on the class. 20 to 40 dogs is too many for meaningful instruction even with the "wife" helping out. It almost seems more like a business decision rather than one based upon good instruction.

It won't of course do any good to go to a beginner class if it is run the same way as this one. Too many dogs, too much distraction. Again, you want to teach the dog in an atmosphere where it can concentrate and learn what is expected and in a small enough class where you can get timely coaching from the instructor.

Only my top of mind opinions............

[Apamaria]

This thread applies very much to me too, so I just wanted to thank Judi once again for good pointers! I had to decide that YG cannot approach other dogs at all-at least not until he is completely listening to me. His actions are also of the type "I want to go there and don't you dare stop me!". He's been very good and polite (after the initial hysterical struggle to get to them) with the few bitches we have met nose to nose, but since the last time it happened, his behaviour backslided and we were back to me having to physically control him every time he saw another dog. So, give the devil a finger, he'll take yer whole hand..:D

So no meeting other dogs for us at all at this time anyway. They forget so easily...and they don't understand exceptions, as in yes you can go see this dog since you really want to, but no, you can't go to that dog no matter how much you want to. For us, at this time, it has to be "no, you cannot go, and that's final". When he learns to listen to me in this regard, I may give him permission to say hello to other dogs (though I actually think it's never gonna happen-not until he gets a brain transplant anyway...:p

[Judi W]

Well, as an FYI from my own family. My young male is not allowed to be social with ANY dogs on the training field, at shows or at trials. That way he is not receiving any mixed signals about doggy friendships. Those places are where he works and listens and behaves well.

We have doggy houseguests and all mix together. We visit friends and dogs mix assuming no other males. I simply do not allow male to male interaction after a dog matures.

[lblax]

in your post youve named several instances of things that happened...... dogs dont need doggy playmates !!!!!!! his problem in class it purely a training problem

[Beckysmom]

OK, thanks guys! All of it fits!

We ran into two dogs while in the woods today so I got to test the onleash / offleash theory, that fit B. I think on top of all his rescue dog, lack of early training and socialization issues, that this last week was "normal" teenage rebellion swinging into full gear. I popped on his leash and said it was time to go, he "said" : "Make me." So I did. There are times when prong collars are very nice for the handler, and I was glad they weren't illegal here like where you are, Anna. In fact, yup, he is about to throw a tantrum right now because his friend the lab is out on her walk and he wants to go too. Lessee. think this calls for a "knock it off" and ignore him.

I think B and I need to have some more private (or just with a few dogs) sessions with Ken. I'll arrange that. and there is yet another venue that I haven't been to--don't know how full classes there tend to be, nor what distraction level is. I think it is the beginner-intermediate class. Naturally it is the hardest to get to from where I live.

Hmmm. No, I think I will leash him and take him out but not let him play with his buddy the lab. Time to join you, Anna, in the military commander over our dogs routine!!! :D ;)

Kate

[Judi W]

Excellent. Once you recognize that it is basically disrespect for you and your authority, half of the battle is won. Changing your attitude is going to have a much bigger effect that you would have realized. The dog knew that you were looking for "reasons" (read excuses) for him acting up and was taking full advantage. Boot camp for Mr. B it is. In other words, you're going to give him an attitude of "don't mess with me, Mr."................

[Beckysmom]

Boot camp session went well. Little B has just been taken down a peg.

I think in addition to "don't mess with me Mr." it may help for me to get an image of what I wouldn't have let Beck get away with. That B gets no extra slack because of his eyes still having some problems, or being a rescue dog. Both those, a health issue and being a rescue seem like easy traps to fall into for spoiling. Or, if not actually spoiling, not being as harda** as one might be.

I now want to take him back to the same venue class as we just had problems at this last weekend just to see what happens in same place with same dogs, but with my new attitude in place. Don't know if that is a good idea. But it feels like the right thing to do sort of like getting him out on leash around the lab and refusing to let him get away with guff. (Guff, is that a word? sounded right.)

Thanks again,
Kate