Moving from prong to flat

[Emme]

I've decided to make a change in collars and could use some tips/suggestions as our transition is not going smoothly. (I want to switch so Emme can get her CGC this summer) I currently walk Emme with a prong - she pulls terribly and the prong makes our walks enjoyable. I walk on a 6 foot lead, but folded down so most is held my hand and there is about a foot of slack

The past 2 nights I've tried to walk her on a flat collar with no success. As soon as she senses she isn't on the prong she forges ahead - can't give her a physical correction on the flat collar, so instead, as soon as she breaks a heel, I stop dead and give a verbal correction. I've also tried spinning and walking in the opposite direction - in which case she will again pull out ahead of me.

When I employ the stop dead tactic, she'll go the end of her leash, then sit down ahead of me, sideways, facing me, or however she decides to plop. (When on the prong and I stop, she will stand in a heel position.) Its like she's lost all concept of leash manners....

On both walks I ended up changing over to the prong - especially when we headed off the sidewalks and into the fields. We were doing this stop go stop go stop go for 20 - 30 minutes before I found myself getting fustrated and my arm aching. Help!

[Muckdogs]

sounds to me like your dog needs more obedience and less reliance on equip. anyway, work on that. If you want to transition away from the prong, try leaving it on and using the flat collar sometimes, and the prong othertimes, intermittently. You can even double leash your dog if you need to. Leash to flat, leash to prong, that way you can still give the proper corrections. AS I am no AKC guy, someone help me out here. Does the AKC allow fursavers for their OB? If so, and your ultimate goal is to go to the flat collar, I would use the fursaver as an intermediate step. This will also give yo time to work on the transition. You can sitll give a proper correction with the fursaver on the live ring. Surely, if the AKC allows fursavers, it would surely be deadringed.

[valdes43]

I've been working with a few basic obedience clients lately and one thing I've noticed that's been consistent amongst them when giving non effective corrections is the style of correction they give. The correction should be an instant lightning fast pop. I didn't say hard, the dog will dictate how hard or how many times you'll have to do it. For instance, If a dog decides to forge on me, just before he hits the end of the 6 foot lead I will issue a series of really fast pop an release kind of pops. It's really fast, instant, and no tugging action at all. I've been able to handle a lot of dogs that owners could never use anything but a prong with just a simple buckle collar. Don't ever forget, lots of reward for staying in close. I'm not trying to wait for the dog to make a mistake so that I can bust him up and then feed him. I want him to know that by me is the greatest thing in the world and i will not hesitate to remind him often but that there are boundries.

[Emme]

Val - are you doubleleashing as Muck suggested? If not, how are you giving corrections with a flat collar? Are you popping with a choke? I might add that Emme walks beautifully on a prong collar - rarely do I need to give corrections - and she never pulls, mostly when wildlife catches her attention and she forgets I'm there...but when I do give a correction I don't need to remind her twice. We walk/hike extensively every day (6+miles) and when on the prong she is wonderful. Thank you so much for your thoughts - keep 'em coming!

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Emme
Val - are you doubleleashing as Muck suggested? If not, how are you giving corrections with a flat collar? Are you popping with a choke? I might add that Emme walks beautifully on a prong collar - rarely do I need to give corrections - and she never pulls, mostly when wildlife catches her attention and she forgets I'm there...but when I do give a correction I don't need to remind her twice. We walk/hike extensively every day (6+miles) and when on the prong she is wonderful. Thank you so much for your thoughts - keep 'em coming!

No, I don't double leash and Yes I do use a flat collar. It has to be an instant thing. A lot of people take longer than an instant and end up actually tugging the dog. I'm convinced a lot has to do with the technique. The first couple of times with the flat you might have to give a much harder correction then you usually do with the prong but after that he should get the picture. Do not correct lagging. If he's lagging, he's trying to avoid, coax him to you and reward with a treat when he's next to you in heel position. When I say "much harder" I'm not saying kill the dog. You can gauge your punishment techniques by looking at the dog's behavior. If he continues to pull after a few times, then your punishment is not at an effective level but if you do see the behavior of pulling on the leash DECREASE then you know the punishment is working.

[Emme]

I double leashed last night - and it was OK - not the normal relaxing walk that we're used to. She walked beautifuly. When we were almost home I removed the prong completely, but as soon as we began moving she was forging ahead - so we did the stop start thing all the way home. That bugger knew that she wasn't wearing the prong - smart girl... I was thinking about putting the prong on, but not attaching the leash to it. Any thoughts on this?

Val - I should use the same technique as if I was popping a choke? - I'd like to try this tonight! I've always ended up pulling (or her pulling me) when she reaches the end of the leash - not a quick correction. I never thought to try to give a correction with the flat.

Also - am I doing the right thing by stopping dead or spinning and going the other way. This is how she was taught to heel and I thought that going back to basics was correct? Should I continue to use these methods in addition to the above suggestions?

[GenHannibal]

I wouldn't take the pinch collar off until quite some time after getting back from your walk. She knows when its on because you've made her notice by removing it so quickly. There are tabs ( short pieces of leather/or nylon) that you can attach to the pinch, making it accesible for the correction with the prong.

Quick pops used at the right time is definitely the technique. By letting her reach the end of the lead and then turning you are basically pulling her in your direction. As you are turning you'll want to pop and praise her when she reaches the spot "you" want her to be.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by Emme


Also - am I doing the right thing by stopping dead or spinning and going the other way. This is how she was taught to heel and I thought that going back to basics was correct? Should I continue to use these methods in addition to the above suggestions?

Yeah, I would do that. I only like to do that when the dog is forging (this is not how i train competition heeling, totally different ) I'll turn around when he's not looking and quickly hit the end of the leash so the dog gets a quick pop. I don't make any eye contact with the dog, he just missed the train---next time pay a little bit more attention. As soon as he gets into heel position and reward him with food. In the begging I will reward a whole lot, I want him to know that sticking with me is clearly the best option. While he's in position, I'll be enthusiastic with him while feeding. I don't say or do anything when I turn around on him and he gets a party when he comes back. The implementation of food is extremely important to me. It refocuses the dog on something else then having his mind busy thinking about correction which could make him confused and possible result in aggressive behaviors out of frustration. The learning time is so much quicker also.

Just quick story... I had a client with a black lab. When I first met the owner, her dog was pulling her all over the place. She could barely hold him. In 2 sessions, a week apart from each other this lady was able to walk her dog into the pet store with other dogs and scents and toys and all that good stuff, and was able to grab a bag of dog food and walk up to the register without any problem whatsoever. And the dog did not look like it was beat half to death. :)

[Mattweiser]

DogtraInnotekTriTronics!!!

LOL

use an e-collar to make the dog avoid the end of the leash... it is clear that the dog can distinguish between pinch and prongs... and the OP stated that he is incappable of delivering an "appropriate" correction.. so try correcting the dog for putting any tension on the leash at all....

no praise, no verbal correction, no "no" or "uhh uhh"....

just a light e-stim... as soon as the dog releases the pressure, release the stim.....

;)

[Doug Wendling]

This is a bit different approach other then what has been talked about already. You are creating a need for equipment by not talking to your dog from the start. The dog needs to be command responsive. By this I mean he needs to know when you say something he had better do what you are asking or he will get a correction. If you never let the dog know verbally what he is doing right or wrong and just start cranking away you are creating a dog that is equipment responsive.

From the start it needs to be heel (verbal), pop (physical). You need to communicate with the dog, if he is forging tell him heel and then pop. What will happen if you stick to this throughout his training the command heel (or whatever command you are teaching) will carry some weight and meaning.:)

Just my opinion...................

[Judi W]

I agree with Doug and would even go a step further. If your dog is not trained to an off-lead level then it is not ready to be taken out on a flat collar. I know you have a goal for therapy that requires a flat collar, but you do not get there by skipping steps in training. rushing now means you will need to back track or settle for being drug around by your dog....... not a pretty sight

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Doug Wendling
From the start it needs to be heel (verbal), pop (physical). You need to communicate with the dog, if he is forging tell him heel and then pop. What will happen if you stick to this throughout his training the command heel (or whatever command you are teaching) will carry some weight and meaning.:)

Just my opinion...................

this is true.. if you are teaching a formal heel.... I was describing a method to teach the dog to simply walk on a light leash...

without having to introduce true punishers and the stressors of handler corrections :)

[Judi W]

Matt, you are correct that her goal doesn't require formal heel position - but it will still require the training to the level of off lead control if she wants to use a flat collar. You want a dog that responds to voice and not lead collar pressure.

[Mattweiser]

I am with you Judi...

but this can be accomplished with an e-collar and vey little stress....

both to the dog and handler.. ;)

[Doug Wendling]

Matt
I understand and agree with what you are saying, but I feel the handler must still orally communicate with the dog for the e-collar to be as effective as it can be, at least throughout the basic OB training.

My point with my first post is I have seen to many people just physically correct a dog without letting the dog know what it is he/she is doing wrong.

Example,
Someone is teaching the dog to heel, they say heel and start walking, the dog is in good position and then he starts to forge. Well, a common thought is I told him to heel once, so now he gets popped. The pop really has no connection with the command that was given maybe 10 steps earlier. Even though the handler said heel at the beginning he/she needs to say heel again and pop for the dog to start making the connection. This can very easily be done with the e-collar as well.