first day with the police dog trainer

[Beckysmom]

Using pretty much Judi W's method for transport (Thanks Judi!) Bodhi travelled successfully to the police dog trainer thence to shopping errand and then back to trainer's to watch a class.

Bodhi likes the trainer better than he likes the other woman. Lots better. Also this trainer is clearly capable of going to much higher levels of obedience and other work than the first trainer. He has a website with his philosophy etc.: www.schillinglawdog.com .

Pretty much everything about his approach is different than anything I've run into before. And I'd love to get feedback from some of you on what you think.

He has one intro class session and then the dog starts right in to an already going class--which is also very different. This trainer has people with dogs from beginning to advanced levels mixed in together. Some are just barely getting a sit while on a leash, while others are holding a sit offleash for ten minutes with handler in other room amidst the distraction of everything else going on. They aren't even all working toward same ends or skills in the same class at the same time. Very different than classes where everyone starts and does same sequence at same time! And I hope I don't get too confused and distracted by it, let alone my dog.

Also very different, this trainer doesn't recommend neutering or spaying for most dogs--including not mine. (though he is willing to work with altered dogs if they already are, or if it is the owner's choice to go ahead and do that.) One of the training exercises that the intact and interested boys have to master is being able to "leave it", and go right on working and not be distracted by females in heat!

I am a little overwhelmed by how different this was than what I've previously encountered in trainers...and I'm a little worried about seeing a lot of shaping behaviours in the beginners by physically putting them in a sit or stand or whatever position (in one exercise dogs were being taught to get on a table, and if they didn't the owner lifted them on up) because my guy is so big and heavy--but Ken and his wife said don't worry about that: that techniques that fit each dog and owner will be used.

I was particularly impressed by one of Ken's clients' dogs that held a calm obedience level stay when my big guy --about twice that dog's size--came in bouncing all over the place. Also glad that my dog was not regarded as being a problem dog. :)

[spidey]

I don't agree with not spaying bitches who will not be shown or bred for medical reasons (as we've discussed ad nauseam, my opinion on not neutering wavers back and forth and I definitely don't feel as strongly about that as I do about spaying, but I think it's a bit irresponsible for someone in a position of authority to recommend not spaying without also discussing the health risks - the mammary cancer risk alone is more than convincing). But other than that what you've said sounds interesting. I wonder how he manages to give everyone their money's worth (so to speak) in a class where everyone is at a different level - it makes group explanations impossible - does he give a bit of individual training here and there? How does he keep an eye on what everybody is doing? How many people were in the class? I haven't looked at his site, but you haven't said much about the training methods used, what sorts of methods did you see?

[Judi W]

Go and train! The key is felexibility and using the handedness appropriate for the individual dog. The Rottweiler by nature should have a strong work ethic and you will find that as he learns things it will kick in and you will see work for the joy of it.

[Birdie'sMom]

My training class has 6 dogs in it - all at different levels, too. We are outside in a fenced in area. My trainer walks around and gives us excercises to work on, watches for a few minutes, walks to the next person and so on and then comes back to check how we are doing and helps us if we need it, or gives us something else to work on if our dog is ready to move on. We also get to give the dogs playtime for a few minutes every once in awhile. It gives the dogs a chance to unwind a little and then we get to practice rounding them up when it's time to train again. I love my trainer and her method - it's working awesome!! It doesn't seem to matter what your dog is working on. No - it's not the same attention that you would get with one on one training - but I can't afford that, and I think for what I am paying I am getting my money's woth!

[lblax]

i went to the site and didnt see anything about his methods or really offeriong any training at all except for protection training which is why he has the mind set about nuetering dogs---- he probably feels that a nuetered dog cant do protection work which is bull!!!! personally i didnt see anything on this site except things that would turn me away such as the picks you can see he is taking money from 2 people for protection training on a poodle and a golden retriever!!!!! most reputable trainers would turn these owners away. and the fact he has that toddler walking around amidst all that group of dog toting how safe she is.... untrue.... but you be the judge of how training is going and if you are happy with the results then go for it. to tell you not to nueter your dog (if your not showing or breeding) tells me he is going to try to get you into the protection training.

[KatMc]

becky's mom,

If this trainer is going to give both you and Bohdi the confidence you need to live in harmony, go for it. He can't press you into anything you aren't comfortable with and Bohdi needs a firm hand and someone that understands him.

From you initial meeting I sure hope this is the trainer for you both.

Good luck,
Kathy

[spidey]

it's not the same attention that you would get with one on one training - but I can't afford that, and I think for what I am paying I am getting my money's woth!

Oh sure! Now that you've explained more (I was more concerned about the class size - 6 people sounds fine for this method, I was worried it might be 20 people or something), it sounds good. It certainly sounds like you're enjoying it so far, so keep it up and good luck!

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by lblax
i went to the site and didnt see anything about his methods or really offeriong any training at all except for protection training which is why he has the mind set about nuetering dogs---- he probably feels that a nuetered dog cant do protection work which is bull!!!! personally i didnt see anything on this site except things that would turn me away such as the picks you can see he is taking money from 2 people for protection training on a poodle and a golden retriever!!!!! most reputable trainers would turn these owners away. and the fact he has that toddler walking around amidst all that group of dog toting how safe she is.... untrue.... but you be the judge of how training is going and if you are happy with the results then go for it. to tell you not to nueter your dog (if your not showing or breeding) tells me he is going to try to get you into the protection training.

Most reputable trainers that know anything about dogs at all would not turn these dogs away. Instead, most reputable trainers would evaluate the dogs for workability, regardless of breed. You should run away from trainers that believe that an absoulte correlation exists between breeds and workability. Obviously there are certain exceptions out there, but even within the exceptions, freaks exist that could probably do an okay job for what they are. Standard poodles are very smart and workable dogs. Labs are as well. We have a SchH III (retired) yellow lab in our club that won the Southeast regional a little while back. Unfortunately, I was not able to see Harry and Cody compete, but I am told that there was a lot of giggling and snickering goign on until about 5 seconds after he satrted his protection routine. Cody still bites much better than 85% of the dogs in our club now.

[Beckysmom]

Answering the question of more details on what I saw and methods:

The particular class I was watching had more than 6 people and 6 dogs--it also had more than one trainer operating at the same time. Both Ken and his wife and another man. Also, one of the experienced class members whose dog was on long long stay in preparation for competition obedience trials seemed to be helping some of the junior members. The wife and other man seemed to give little one on one suggestions as they saw things, or would signal an owner who was out of room while its dog was on a down stay that the dog had broken its stay and needed to be corrected, if that happened. The main master of ceremonies was Ken, who moved quickly around from person to person telling them what to do (or have their dogs do) next, and making little suggestions. Though occasionally he would give whole room commands--like "everyone down your dog now" or "everyone give break and play time to your dog now". Sometimes he would stay in one spot and expect the owners to give him "attention" --while at same time keeping track of their dogs--and with a point he would give commands to each owner in turn, who would in turn then give commands to their dogs (for example, when it was time to break a stay with a come, he would point to each owner as that owner's turn came--based on length of stay expected for the dog, and the owner would say. "Fido, come"--and hopefully Fido would come, and not also Fluffy ;) ) At other moments he would move among dogs with varying levels of distractions from what they were doing I guess Ken has the far hardest part since each individual owner only has to watch Ken and one dog, whereas he is sort of watching everyone. (He is very observant--I couldn't find my pencil at one point and he told me I had put it in my right front pocket earlier.) Every little while he would say general things to group as whole, like "remember, 'Firm, Fair and Consistent' " or "The sooner you get your dog to offer the right behaviour, the sooner you reward for that, the more effective your training will be." The woman next to me was just starting to get her dog to do "stand" and he took a moment to show her how to touch the dog underneath to encourage it up and corrected her leash work.

Apparently usually class is held outside, but due to rain it was indoors last night.

All dogs were on standard choke collars. Were given standard quick pop leash corrections for not responding to known commands--also for things like trying to socialize when they were supposed to be working. There was a minimum of food treating, mostly pets and praise for good work, and more praise than correction--dogs seemed to be being worked at level that they could get most of what was asked of them right most of the time.

The protection work he does is apparently in large part for the dog to learn what is and what is not a genuine threat--which would be very good for Bodhi. If Bodhi gets past his basics, I wouldn't feel that putting him in a protection class is being pushed in a wrong direction for me and him. During college I got a little job exercising someone's Great Dane, which eventually bonded to the point that no one could come within about 10 feet of me when the dog was around, any boyfriend who tried to hug me in the dog's presence was risking his life. I found it charming back then, but i don't want Bodhi to get like that.

There was a protection class that followed the regular class, which I didn't stay to watch, but I was still there asking questions of some of the human students and Ken's wife as the class was starting: there were a variety of breeds going to the protection class and what appeared to be both neutered and unneutered males and females of unknown status. At least last night, none of the dogs going to protection class were very small, but they ranged from a smallish boxer to an enormous Doberman. Ken's specialty is GSD's and there appeared to be about 5 of those (about half the dogs going to the protection class room) including a couple that are potentially going into actual police work.

As a kid my family had a GSD, "Gretchen", that was safe around its own older kids, but not other kids, and not kids under two even in its own family . Becky my last dog was safe around kids in general--no, I know no dog is perfect, but then humans go suddenly insane too. I met one of Ken's GSD's--it did seem to be of a safe Becky sort of temperment, not an unsafe Gretchen sort.

[lblax]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
Standard poodles are very smart and workable dogs. Labs are as well. We have a SchH III (retired) yellow lab in our club that won the Southeast regional a little while back. Unfortunately, I was not able to see Harry and Cody compete, but I am told that there was a lot of giggling and snickering goign on until about 5 seconds after he satrted his protection routine. Cody still bites much better than 85% of the dogs in our club now.

as my post stated for her to be the judge of how the training was going and if she was happy go for it. we will get a little off the post here but she ask people to go to his site and comment. which is what i did. if you honestly believe that most trainers would evaluate poodles labs goldens and train them to be protection dogs well good you know more open minded trainers than most. also i do believe there is a direct correlation between not only breeds but geneticly capable dogs within breeds and workability. the site was all about protection and as a particapent in schutzhund i know ( not personally) of sporting breeds--- malamutes ect. that have done well in schutzhund but also there is really no comparison between a schutzhund trained dog and a true personal protection dog and while a freak in a breed may make it in schutzhund and do the routine( in our club we call them circus dogs they bark cause they were trained to bark and do a routine not because ot true channeledaggression and drives) they would hardly make a true personal protection dog even a slim few of accomplished schutzhund dogs will make a true personal protection dog

[Beckysmom]

I did indeed ask for feedback on this trainer since it was very different seeming to what I have seen before. And I have appreciated all the feedback, and even the disagreements have been helpful to me as I think things through.

Thanks to all of you who responded!

Tuesday will be a big day for Bodhi (and me)as he has a visit with a veterinary ophthalmologist in the early afternoon in a city a little ways away. Then at 7PM he has first class in the nearest city with the police dog trainer. In between there is not enough time to get home so we will have to somehow use up the time.

The trainer said if I can't find anything else to do that we can go sit in his waiting room and work on Bodhi's down stay and general calmness etc. as other dogs go in and out!

While my head is still spinning a little I think that for Bodhi this will be a right trainer. Sort of a graduation from kindergarten with a teacher who couldn't quite handle the big guy and into boot camp with a kindly drill sargeant who can, and where there seems to be a mutual affection--(the trainer had to tell Bodhi not to sit in his lap). and while the big guy has me to thank for his being alive, probably, he may have this trainer to thank for getting to keep his testicles ;) . We'll see. A lot will depend on the outcome of his specialist eye exam. Anyway, I can do the one class, and then just take it one step at a time...

[lblax]

well it sounds like your going to have a good time and if you do thats 85 percent of the battle good luck..... but i really dont understand this testicle thing your trainer has it absolutly has to be a macho thing------- isnt bohdi a rescue???? if so he should never be bred any way and the health benefits of neutering you know these im sure.. nuetering him absolutly will not affect his training in any way. if you get into the protection either your dog will geneticly have it or not a set of balls does not make a protection dog if he has what it takes then he will carry the set he needs in his heart

[Beckysmom]

Don't worry, I'm not planning to breed him! This has been discussed more in Vet Corner and Behaviour forum threads. Bodhi's eyes will be put first, and what needs to be done for them will in large measure determine the fate of his other parts. (It is related both due to timing of surgery, whether eye specialist or generalist will do the surgery, and relating to his testosterone affected growth issues, which in turn affect his head shape, possibly his loose skin fit, and thus potentially his eyes. I cannot safely legally neuter at this time, unless there is medical necessity, because he is a rescue who was not turned into pound--which tends to automatically pts rottie-ish dogs-- and is in same status more or less as a found ring or wallet. He could still be claimed by original owners. Even if I were promised that he wouldn't be pts, I don't want to turn him into pound and aggravate his intense separation anxiety and abandonment issues. i can take care of anything that is medically necessary for him, but until time expires for him to be still claimable by original owners he cannot be altered where not medically necessary. I was thus relieved to learn that this trainer does not regard altering as particularly necessary for him at all. That being the case, his eyes will govern what is done. If his eyes do not need to be done anytime soon, then I will revisit the question of neutering and eye surgury at same time. Or if he doesn't need eye surg. at all then I'll revisit the question of neutering alone when the dog is fully legally mine.)

[Mick Trainer]

I see nothing here that should be of a concern. If the dogs look good and work good and are happy and do what the customers want I see nothing wrong at all. I too do not encourage desexing (it has nothing to do with protection) and have trained many different breed for protection including a standard poodle and even a basset hound. Certainly these dogs were ones out of the bag but they had what it takes and the worners wanted it done and were responsible people. Although I would not want to be standing behind the labX in the photos. It could be just a bad shot :D

Becky's mom, if you like what you see and are happy with the results then go for it.

Ask him if you will who he worked with in Australia (he says this on his site) I would be interested to know.

Mick.

[Beckysmom]

Thanks Mick, I missed the reference to Australia I guess, anyway I'll ask!