When did you get a prong collar for your dog?

[BigNewbie]

Venus is getting a bit full of herself these days and I'm wondering what age and size your own dogs were when you purchased your own prong collars???

[Jaegergirl]

we got ours for maverick when he was about 5 months old. we were out for a walk and it was the first time he almost pulled my arm out of the socket. when we went to obedience class that week our trainers said it was time for a prong.

we use the prong on walks, when we're at the store, or at the beginning of class. usually after maverick settles down i can use a flat collar at class.

[Anne]

I didn't find the need to use a prong. I use a Halti sometimes with a flat collar the rest of the time. I only need to use the Halti if things are not going so well on our walks. I carry the Halti with me just in case. I don't care for the look of the prongs. I know people say that the Halti is only a training tool but if that is the case then what is a prong? I want my girl to do what I say without the use of either of these training tools. I really don't want to force her into doing what I want - I would like her to do it because she knows and obeys her commands. I hope this is not wishful thinking.

[Judi W]

The assumption that all dogs go to a pinch at a certain age is incorrect. If you do your foundation early and with finess a pinch likely will not ever be a necessary part of your training equipment. It is quite possible to teach a dog to be light to the leash without a pinch or even serious corrections.

[Jaegergirl]

The assumption that all dogs go to a pinch at a certain age is incorrect. If you do your foundation early and with finess a pinch likely will not ever be a necessary part of your training equipment. It is quite possible to teach a dog to be light to the leash without a pinch or even serious corrections.

we got maverick at 15 weeks and started him in training 2 days after we got him. he's almost 9 mo now.. is it too late?? if not, i'd love to know what training "techniques" you'd suggest. i have no qualms using the prong collar but want to show him (definately obedience, possibly conformation) and i obviously can't use a prong in either of those arenas. thanks!

[Judi W]

Well, there are a million excellent techniques with the individual dog prescribing effectiveness of each. A good training class will give you a whole suitcase full of ideas and attending trials will allow you to watch different handlers and dogs and see their relationships.

You strongest training tool is your voice. Think about it. How do we work with dogs in a huge pasture full of running sheep, in the obedience rings with no leash attached whatsoever........... It is the voice. You are forming a partnership with your dog, not an adversarial relationship. Thinking one has to hammer a dog into submission is not a substitute for loving leadership. Look at your dog, learn to understand your dog and communicate.

I am not saying a pinch is not ever used as I think they are an excellent tool when necessary. I am saying they are not always necessary and usually come into play when the foundation has not been laid and then the dog is being pushed forward beyond where they are ready to go.

[Jaegergirl]

thanks.

i guess i need to talk with my trainers more about this when our next session starts. they come very highly regarded (the woman from the rottweiler club who recommmeded the breeder also recommended the training facility which i attend). they know maverick so i'm sure they'll have some good suggestions.

[spidey]

I don't care for the look of the prongs. I know people say that the Halti is only a training tool but if that is the case then what is a prong?

IMHO, the look of a device shouldn't be what influences whether or not you use it, the effect should be. I think perhaps you misunderstood what some of us have said about the Halti, I think that it's NOT a training tool, but a control device. I don't believe it's effective for training (not least because there's no true correction and release possible with it), but it's certainly effective for control, the dog is forced, by virtue of the incredible degree of leverage a Halti provides, not to pull. I've seen too many dogs depressed or claustrophobic in a Halti to ever consider using it on a dog of mine (this is not to condemn it, I know some dogs do well in them, I'm just explaining because I think you misunderstood :) ). I also think that the fact that many professional trainers are moving sharply away from the halter devices says something about how effective they are as training tools. A prong is effective for training, because you have control over how much correction the dog gets AND it provides an effective release, it's very mild in action compared to how it looks, and it's a natural transition between a regular collar and a prong, because the method of action is comparable.

In answer to BigNewbie's question, there isn't an age at which a prong is required, whether or not you need one depends on the individual dog and the issues you may be having with it. I've known people with Pugs who went to a prong because the dog would not stop pulling and was hurting itself (the prong's a wonder for that kind of problem). If it's a safety issue (you can't walk the dog without fear of getting pulled over, for example), then it may be time. Oh and Judi is, of course, right that not every dog needs one and not every dog needs one permanently, they're often effective while working on a specific problem, with the goal of going back to a regular collar.

[Grendl]

I purchased a prong collar many years ago, at the urging of my obedience class instructor for my one-year-old female Malamute. I have used it with most, but not all of my dogs, as an attention-getting device, as a temporary tool. I return to the regular collar, usually after only one or two lessons with the prong. After a couple of sessions with the prong, the original Malamute had only to be shown the collar to immediately remember her training!

[Judi W]

I can from experience as an instructor, totally agree with Spidey. I have had students show up in training classes with dogs that have never been on anything but the head devices. They want to continue with them so I say, OK, let's see how you progress. I have yet to see a single dog that made progress at all after 5 weeks or more. It is at that time I suggest that they go to a training collar and the difference is outstanding. Most of the dogs on the head devices are not happy workers and lag terribly and many whenever possible are pawing at the darn thing. I have watched puppies when they were first fitted with them trying their utmost to rub them off, rolling on the ground and bucking like a colt. I have queried many about the dog becoming accustomed to the halter and they have all said that at first the dog was very unhappy, but did adjust. (yeah, I've seen the adjustment) Well, my position is that instead of spending all that time getting the dog used to something that was designed for horses and clearly is a suppressive device they spent that time teaching the dog they would be far and away ahead.

The halters are chosen with the best of intentions. Usually the biggest fans are those who think a collar correction is unkind, but if kindness is the point, why put on something that applies continuous touch on what is for the dog a discipline point (top of the muzzle)?

If the owner does not wish to train, but does wish to be able to walk their dog without being dragged into traffic, fine and yes, they will serve that purpose. They do accomplish that and I have no problem. If they want to train (something I consider not optional with the Rottweiler breed), then I believe they are less than the most effective tool. They are more compulsive than any collar can be.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally posted by spidey
I think that it's NOT a training tool, but a control device. I don't believe it's effective for training (not least because there's no true correction and release possible with it),

Let me assure you that the above statement is incorrect. Halti collars not only can, be but if used correctly, are a very effective piece of training equipment. Not only is it possible to correct and release thus using positive punishment the Halti collars are far more versatile and can be used for negative re-enforcement at vastly higher levels of variance than any other piece of equipment excluding e-collars. If you do not believe that a Halti can be used to train a dog and then be removed and have the dog perform the same, then I would encourage you to train and experiment with them more and seek a better understand the rules of conditioning and in particular operant conditioning.

I've seen too many dogs depressed or claustrophobic in a Halti to ever consider using it on a dog of mine All this illustrates is that you have seen people using them who do not understanding how to use it correctly. People use these same arguments to deminish the use of all control devices that have an element of compulsion to them including pinch and slip collars. The facts are to get the best results from any equipment or training technique one must understand how to use it correctly. The halti is no different.

I also think that the fact that many professional trainers are moving sharply away from the halter devices says something about how effective they are as training tools. Whether or not professional trainers are moving away from Haltis or not is a matter of opinion. Some are but many now who are willing to experiment and find a technique how best to use them are finding them to be a very impressive peice of equipment with good results. When i first started playing around with Haltis I was one of only two trainers who were and every other trainer around thought us as "kooks". But in recent times I have had a a large amount of trainers some to be to better understand what I am doing with the equipment and have begun to bring them into their systems more.

A prong is effective for training, because you have control over how much correction the dog gets AND it provides an effective release, Once again play around with a halti collar more and you will see they do indeed relase instandly. Halti collars can very easily used, as a prong or slip chain is used, and can be used with great versatility of compulsion. Added to this the collar does allow in the early stages of conditioning a degree of simply control that can allow the user to encourge the dog to exibit the desired behavior and be rewarded for this.

it's very mild in action compared to how it looks, and it's a natural transition between a regular collar and a prong, because the method of action is comparable. I do not in any way wish to be seen to be bagging pinch collars. I use them frequently and have done so for many, many years on many hundreds of dogs. They are indeed gentler than they look and should not be judged on their appearance. However it is incorrect to believe that because a prong is more similar in it's positioning etc that it is a more effective trainer as the dog will hold the training longer once it is removed. If a dog reacts different once the equipment is removed this shows that the dog is not truly conditioned to the commands but is reliant on the equpiment not as a corrective device but as a trigger to the command. Further it can also show that the dog is mearly escaping the correction rather than avoiding it and more importantly the behavior that brings the correction (if the dog does not propoly know the behavior that is required it cannot truly avoid the behavior and thus the correction) and thus shows a break down in the conditioning process most likely in the early stages. A dog once trained should be removed from the equipment and respond the same. The equipment should have become irrelivant as the dog had a conditioned responce to the trigger/command and not the collar.

Judi W writes "I have yet to see a single dog that made progress at all after 5 weeks or more. " This shows a lack of understanding of the person using it. I now train aprox 95% of dogs on head Haltis and we have cut our training time for basic level obedience in half and we usually get very impressive results by the first or second session. Once you understand better the technique required for a halti to be an effective training device it is incredably easy to teach people how to use one correctly. It is one of the greats strengths of the halti that is it so easy to teach people how to use it correctly. Most people get it about 90% right in 10-15 minutes. No longer is the timing anywhere near as critical. Further to this they allow the person to use far more postive re-enforcement as the dog is exibiting the desired behavior vastly quicker

Most of the dogs on the head devices are not happy workers and lag terribly and many whenever possible are pawing at the darn thing. My responce too this is the same as above. This is very much dependant on the handler. If used in the early stages correctly a dog will stop pawing at the halti very quickly (although it is a side effect you must be aware of and prepared to get passed. It usually takes about 2-3 minutes to get decent results and about 10 minutes for the behavior to have gone almost completely) and a dog can work just as happily and positivly in a halti. It is in the user not the equipment. If the dog is re-enforced at the correct time then it will learn to exibit the behavior same as any other form of training. All our dogs work with great vigour and enthusiam and seek the halti same as if it was a pinch, slip, buckle etc. We work a dog in their early drive work in the haltis and it does not suppress this at all. The dog will be healing with it's head up seeking eye contact and pushing the owner to do more same asany other piece of equipment. A lack of enthusiasm is far more likely to be a result of the method that us used rather than the equipment.

I have watched puppies when they were first fitted with them trying their utmost to rub them off I will say that a head halti should not be used on a dog younger than 5 months of age. But this is the same age I choose for any piece of equipment other than a buckle collar or harness.

Well, my position is that instead of spending all that time getting the dog used to something that was designed for horses and clearly is a suppressive device they spent that time teaching the dog they would be far and away ahead I halti when used correctly is no more a suppressive device than a pinch, slip etc.

As I have said above I use head halti collars extensively and have done so for aprox five years now on an ever increasing scale. When I first started experimenting with them I was under the same impression that have been expressed here. Further to this for the first 2-3 months I found that infact the beliefs I had were infact true. However I do not and have never believed that because something shows itself not to work once or have negative side effects that we should discard it and move on but rather we should play further and see where it leads us.

First thing I had to do was find out how to fit them correctly. To cut a long story short the sizing on the box is WRONG. Way wrong. The box says to use a size three on a greyhound. As a general rule I use a size three in a Male rott. The halti must be tight across the back of the neck so as to hold snug around head but loose on the muzzle (It is for this reason I do not use nor recommend "gentle leaders" as they hold tight across the muzzle all the time). Once I had the sizing right I began to master a technique were I could use the collar to steer and reward thus teaching the dog what behaviors I wanted it to exibit very quickly and effectively. At this time the halti became very useful in the early stages of conditioning but that was as far as I thought it would go. That once the dog needed more the equipment would fail as I too believed that it could not release effectively nor did I believe that most customers would understand it correctly and would re-enforce the wrong behavior. So I put it in my "boarding and training" & "my dogs" bag of techniques and for a time that was all I did with them.

Then after doing this for some time, I started to play around again I found that once I have taught the dog to exibit the desired behavior I could then also use the Haltis to apply mild pressure to the dog when it broke said behavior and release pressure as soon as the dog altered its behavior (it must be remembered that once a dog alters it behavior due to compulsion being applied no matter what elevel we believe that compulsion to be at that the compulsion is enough for the dog and that it the dog does not exibit the behavior we desire then we have not taught it correctly. Applying more compulsion will not improve things any). Thus this enabled me to use negative re-enforcement far more readily than before and on vastly lower levels than other equipment used previously.

From here I started playing around more and found that infact you could correct the dog through positive punishment same as you can on a pinch or slip collar. Once you get the hang of the haltis you will find that you can have it loose and give it a pop without moving the dogs head (one of the concerns people have regards the halti that it can pull the dogs neck out. Once again once used correctly you will see this as not the case). The halti would momentarally become tight on the dog and then will release relieving pressure on the dog instantly thus teaching the dog to avoid the pop same as it does for the other compulsive pieces of equipment. Further to this I found I could do so every bit as gently as a pinch or slip chain and to levels to change even the hardest dogs behavior.

In the end I have found that like so many other pieces of training equipment most do not know how to use them correctly and thus end up not liking the equipment etc. However I have found the head haltis to be very effective once I teach people how to use them correctly. At my training centres there are many, many dogs who now perform on lead or off who have never been on any other piece of training equipment than a halti. The dogs work very happily and are conditioned to respond same as the dogs that were trained earlier on pinch collars (very few dogs at my schools are trained on slip chains as as Judi has experienced with Halti collars people that have attended my schools usually find that they are the ones in the group having trouble where as everyone else is doing it easy). Like all training systems there have been failures, people who have come to us and have left without the dog being trained correctly whos dog will pull on the end of the halti the rest of its life. This is nothing new and if you have not experienced this then for me you have not trained enough dog or had enough customers. But since we have used Haltis more often, we have cut that number by half.

I know that this is a little off topic but the question about the pinch has been answered, and I felt that there was a lot of misinformation and a lack of understanding about this equipment here. I will hopefully be writting something more complete regards Haltis soon that I will post here. But please do not hold your breath. On request I also havbe to write ones on "Learned Helplessness", "social aggression", "e-collars" etc etc etc and I am having less and less time now days.

Mick.

[RottiMomCT]

I adopted Ben at 10 months old, 75 pounds and little or no training. We went thru the choke/check collar phase, and when he broke one (OK, it was a cheap one, but it wasn't a strong correction wen it broke) in class, the trainer suggested a prong collar - let me tell you the thoughts I had when he brought the HUGE prong collar over and put it on Ben's little neck (better not tell you what I thought - you all get the idea!).

I used the huge prong for the remainder of class - what a 100% improvement I say in that class. I then purchased a SMALL link prong collar for him and we have been using that collar ever since. I am 'weaning' him off the prong so we can get ready for competition obedience and he's coming long nicely...I still use the prong when out in unpredictable circumstances (PetCo, PetSmart, vet's office, etc) but most of the time he's on a nylon choke collar.

My trainer (not the same one that told us to use the huge prong) said it all depends on the dog, not the age, and alot of dogs never need a prong.

[Anne]

I often wonder why people think that the Halti is merely a tool for people who don't REALLY want to train their dog. I am grateful that Mick Trainer contributed to this thread because being in Australia and quite local to where Mick is I am the lucky one who has him training My Sophie girl and myself. Mick is well known and well respected on this forum for his knowledge and expertise when it comes to training and I had what would be described as a super hyperactive young dog who I was beginning to think I would never be able to train. Prior to meeting Mick I had been to a training club for months, one that used the choke or slip chain. Our progression was absolutely zero and I used to leave those lessons in tears and Sophie hated it. Once Mick came on the scene, we used a Halti first up and at the end of the first lesson Sophie was walking WITHOUT PULLING, sitting on command, stopping automatically at corners before crossing the street and actually enjoying working with Mick. A very few lessons after that she became the obedient dog I was proud to walk and training became fun instead of something to be dreaded. Unfortunately the training had to come to a halt as Sophie had to have TPLO surgery but this is getting off topic. The Halti has been the correct training collar for us. Off lead Sophie will still carry out the commands Mick taught us. We are now ready to recommence training with Mick and I will certainly be taking his advice and staying with the Halti. One thing, as Mick said, you have to be taught how to use the device and it becomes second nature to use it effectively. One who doesn't know will pull the dogs head sideways. Mick has taught us this is not the correct way to do it and it just never happens a quick pop upwards is all it needs for correction.

[Carina43]

I don't think a prong collar is a necessity at all...I can tell you that Cooper (always trained with the most positive of methods) absolutely HATES it. He really resents being pulled or physically corrected in any way and just shuts down completely. I had him briefly in a class wherethey insisted he wear one, and I think it set his training back quite a bit. I quit that place because he was doing poorly...so I think it depends on the dog, and how they respond to different stimulii.

Has Venus been in regular classes & are you working with her leash manners in general? I wouldn't depend on a prong collar to take the place of teaching her manners...

Having said that I do use one with Dutch and it's wonderful for him, he was a very hardheaded adult rescue with pretty much no training. But like Anne with Ben, I'm trying to use it more as a tool to teach him, rather than just a means of walking him without getting dragged down the street!

[BigNewbie]

Venus is worked and trained on a daily basis by me....and I rarely have any problems with her; occasionally she can be a bit stubborn with my wife so the prong is really more for her benefit than mine..