Bodhi update: trainers, eyes, gentle leaders...

[Beckysmom]

Bodhi's eye problem, about which I posted on vet corner, does turn out to be entropion (turned in eyelids) bilateral, but far worse on left.

The same vet who originally "prescribed" him his gentle leader has now taken him off gentle leader, because he thinks it makes the eyes feel worse (even though the positive reinforcement makes the dog not mind it on), in certain positions tending to push the many folds of loose sking this dog has back up towards his eyes. Hence, anyone considering Gentle Leader, might want to be sure their dog doesn't have entropion first.

The problem with the trainer where Bodhi growled may have been due to the painful eyes. (No, it was not a Petsmart type trainer, but one of the regular private trainers in the area, member of national trainers orgs etc.--my ref to going through sales area with things on shelves may have made it sound like Petsmart, but it is in a huge warehouse type building with just a small section of items for sale as one enters.) The trainer said that Bodhi did not react when she brought her hand toward him but rather as she was holding his head. (Is it smart to hold onto the head of a dog one doesn't know? I wonder how her dogs would react if I held their heads?)

Nonetheless, whatever the problem is, it doesn't seem to be evoked by anyone else. We considered whether it could be smallish blonde women that is the problem. But the receptionist at the vet hospital is a small blonde. (Also a former rottie owner herself with very positive feelings toward Bodhi that are clearly mutual.) She had held his head to fit his Gentle Leader originally with no problem She can pat and pet him yesterday with no problem He did object to anyone touching near the eye--but his method of objecting is to toss his head vigourously or resist with whole body, including lying down with the bad eye downward--no growls. (Vet looked at the eyes hands off while I held a treat in my hand in front of Bodhi's nose.)

So maybe he gets personal bad vibes from that trainer? Or maybe she actually did touch right on the eye (or in such a way as to push the skin where it made his eyelashes scratch) and hurt him?

Meanwhile, I am wondering if I should go visit the other trainer now, or wait till Bodhi has had his entropion surgery. Any opinions?

It is correct that this particular trainer is not necessarily a rottie-type dog trainer. Her own dogs are shelties.

The police animal trainer specializes in work with GSD's -- which is a lot closer.

[lblax]

i hate to sound like a doggie racist but in my experiance if someone is big into shelties they usually hate rotties

[Judi W]

"Is it smart to hold the head of a dog one doesn't know"?????

Well, any dog in the show ring not only has his head held, but his teeth counted and his testicles felt as well as often the entire body felt and gone over and yes, by total strangers. A dog that threatens someone who is examining them is quickly excused and often disqualified. In the obedience ring in novice the judge examines the dog briefly while the handler is away from the dog and in the Utiliity class the dog is quite thoroughly handled as in the conformation ring excluding the teeth count and again while the handler is away from the dog and in fact clear across the ring.

So, if your dog has a problem being handled, regardless of whether it is by a short blond woman or a tall dark man, it is an issue of the dog's and best to acknowlege it and work on fixing it.

As far as the instructor's primary breed is concerned, some of the best training tips I've gotten have been from handlers of other breeds. The fact that they don't own your breed does not mean they are not good trainers or instructors. Don't limit yourself by thinking you can only learn from people who have your breed or a similar breed.

[Beckysmom]

"Well, any dog in the show ring not only has his head held, but his teeth counted and his testicles felt as well as often the entire body felt and gone over and yes, by total strangers."

Ah. On the one hand I think you have a good point about some possible tolerance level to be worked toward--and also a good point about trainers who specialize in other breeds being potentially useful.

And at the same time I question the general premise of the remark. Aren't the dogs in the show ring already supposed to be trained to handle that sort of manipulation--often perhaps even having been worked with since early puppyhood toward that end? I'm not sure that analogy of expectation that he be at show dog level obedience and acceptance of being touched short of one month from the adoption point--at which stage he appeared to have been an almost completely untrained dog (had a borderline response to lie down and to being called, but didn't know sit or anything else so far as could be determined), makes any more sense than for me to compare him as he is now to my previous dog at apparently the same age who by that point had been significantly trained and socialized. While we are at it, aren't show dogs already trained in general? If my dog were already trained to show ring standards why would I bother with enrolling in a basic level obedience class? We could also compare him to dogs who do agility or compete in flyball or tracking or Schuzhund and find him sorely lacking in all or at least most respects.

And do even seasoned show dogs allow that sort of touching in what to them are completely new circumstances? (Maybe they do--I don't know what the standard is, but I'd be wary of that I could rush up to a show rottie walking on a leash in a hotel lobby after the show--especially quickly and in a direct forward direction that many dogs regard as a confrontation mode--and start holding its face without talking to the owner first. I know that when I met the sire (show dog) of my previous dog, his owners were careful to introduce me in a cautious manner. (The dam was immediately friendly and outgoing, the sire took being told that it was okay by its owners. Both these responses seem within the realm of reasonable dog behavior--but the teacher in question did not allow there to be a chance for an "intorduction" so to speak. Again, I realize that this could happen on the street at any point that someone runs up and puts themselves in the dog's face...grabs the dog's face, raises their hand as if about to hit the dog--but I am more wary on the street. I honestly expected a trainer to be more careful in her approach. My error. Obviously.

It also seems a significantly different matter when a teacher knew that a dog is a recent rescue who until just a short time ago could not even be leashed and specifically had confinement issues that were to be addressed as part of the training program. When she knew that I was working hard to build up trust with this dog. Where she understood that there is an attempt being made to gradually and positively accustom him to all that which he needs to be accustomed to and was specifically chosen because she had agreed to that? Also--though there is the general no growl rule-- there are other dogs in the class who will not let their ears be looked into, their feet be touched, etc. but as they are only little labrador (etc.) puppies their problems are tolerated and they are not "demoted". Or transferred if we prefer another term. Their owners are just told to work with them and keep using food to reinforce calm and progressive allowing of being handled. OTOH--I do recognize that a 105 pound black and tan rottie like dog is inherently more threatening than a 45 pound yellow retriever looking dog. And I don't expect a teacher to work in a situation where she feels frightened by a dog--though she says she doesn't feel frightened by him.

Anyway, this was not an already obedience trained dog in the show ring. This was day one of the dog's first experience in a classroom situation.

Dog arrives, meets one person nicely. Meets one dog nicely. Bypasses the goodies area without incident. Trainer (but how is dog supposed to know that is his trainer) advances rapidly brings hands swiftly toward dog's face, holds onto his face (possibly complicated by painful eye). I dunno, I think I'd be upset if I were in brand new circumstances and a complete stranger to me suddenly came up to me and grabbed my head too. I think I would yell and jump away too, which is in essence what the dog did. I think I'd be uset even if it did not actually hurt me--tho in this case it might have actually hurt Bodhi. I was not in the class long enough to see if she did this with all the dogs and he was the only one that reacted, or if he was actually treated differently. I did not see her actually touch any other dog at all. On the day when I saw a previous class in action she didn't touch any of the dogs. She did do a little clicker and treat work with one, but did not "get in its face" as it were.

OTOH while I think it isn't really right that he was handled the way he was handled, I don't know who else might evoke this response in him, and so the only opportunity I know of to try to work through it is to take him into Socially Challenged dogs with this same woman. And, after all, he will meet people who automatically are prejudiced against rotties, he will potentially meet people who run up to him and get in his face, so in such a case, there is still something to be worked through.

I believe that you misinterpreted my comments as suggesting that it would be okay to have a thing against blondes. That is not at all what I meant. I was trying to figure out what he might need desensitization to, and have already determined that the problem is apparently NOT blondes. NOT small women. NOT having his head held. It could be this particular person, in which case there is something to work through with her, and we will do that. It may be some combo of things like someone holding his head while he is in a new situation and also in presence of other dogs and also while confined with a leash.

But, it also may be having his seriously inflamed eye with eyelashes turned inward pressed on or made to rub his cornea by scrunching up his face skin.

Frankly, neither I nor the vet thought that if that were the case a growl and pull away would be excessive. And we would have wished for a growl or some sign of distress from the my Becky who died who was unfailingly kind and stoic even in face of broken back and possible osteosarcoma--such that it was not apparent that anything really serious was wrong at first.

Too much willingness to be handled in any way under any circumstance and without showing any "Hey, stop that, that hurts." indication may not always be a good thing when it later comes to trying to find an injury site or make a diagnosis.

In point of fact, it was the uncharacteristic action on the part of the dog that sent me back to the vet because I thought the diagnosis of mere "dry eye" (made by another vet by phone call) must be wrong.

It is not clear that the eye pain caused the growl--but it is looking increasingly like that is so. I guess I would ask if a dog has not been hurt enough to let out an inadvertable yelp, what would one expect? My previous dog went the route of stoic silence (this wasn't specifically trained--but may have been related to training to service dog socialization standards where she was expected to be nonreactive to lots of things like sudden noises or people moving about near her in restaurants etc.). I am not sure I want to train that into a dog who has a warning system in place.

What then would happen? No reaction until it goes straight to the bite point, because it has been taught that a growl is bad? Or nothing until it is too late to find and cure a health problem?

Another point to make is that Bodhi is not being trained to go into the show ring. (As a not papered dog that would in anycase be impsossible, as would many other activities that require AKC papers.) If he is capable of service work like my former dog, he may do that. While service dogs are highly socialized, they are generally not touched/held/do not have their parts manipulated randomly by strangers while working (often wear a patch indicating whether they should not be touched at all, or only after asking permission), and so some of the issues of needing to be able to be touched by anyone anytime as in the show ring are not the same. I guess it is the opposite of show dog in a sense. The show dog while working expects to be touched. The service dog while working generally expects not to be. Likewise, it is generally inappropriate for strangers to come up suddenly to a bomb sniffing dog and grab its head...though I am not sure what the dog would do.

To the best of my knowledge show rotties are allowed to show some mild dislike of other dogs without that being disqualifying. It would likely disqualify a dog doing SAR who was showing dislike of other dogs while at work with other dogs. And a therapy dog probably will put up with things that a show dog may not accept. So does it make sense to hold up the standard of what a therapy dog should accept as being what a show dog should accept? Especially suppose one compared a trained therapy dog to an as yet untrained show dog.

It may even be that Bodhi will put up with some handling that some show dogs do not accept and are not required to accept--for example, being used as a bolster pillow. Some rotties are happy to be bolster pillows and adore having someone's head against their big bodies, others may object to that. Maybe they should all be made to accept that--after all, you never know when some child may run up to a resting rottie and try to lie down on it. (Indeed, this is what happened with a neighbor's dog, who is an able agility dog; it bit when a child tried to use the dog as a pillow.)

Anyway, the next "social challenged" dogs class does not begin till January. I will get the information for that, and then see first, how his eyes are at that point, and then see how that class goes and then make some decisions about whether to only do that program with this particular teacher--giving opportunity to work on whatever she evoked--unless it was touching on or near painful eyes in a way that hurt him-- or whether to do any more formal obedience with her.