Neck placement of the prong collar

[Rottlva]

I was curious on your thoughts concerning the neck placement of a prong collar. I have always been taught up high on the neck with the connecting point right in the middle of the neck, my leash would be connected to the beveled ring. After reading the "corrections" thread and a comment on prong collar placement I read the rings should be towards the right side of the neck?

So, I took my question to the forums here and on the web and came up with an article "Training with the Prong Collar" by Susan Clouthier, an author and trainer I respect. www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Some of the beliefs concerning prong placement were different than what several trainers that I have used have.
Is it personal preference weather one ring is used or two? Am I wrong on my placement on the upper neck? Where should the chain connector be in the center of the dogs neck or on the right?

Taken from "Training with a prong collar" Susan Clouthier, AKC Gazette 1998 ( weblink above)

"When properly fitted, the prong collar should be at roughly the mid-way point on the dog's neck, with the chain portion flat, not sagging. Beware those who recommend fitting a prong collar (or any collar) up high, near the dog's ears - their intention is to cause pain by putting the collar in this nerve rich, muscle poor area of great sensitivity.

My initial set up is ALWAYS with the leash hooked to both rings, so that there is NO tightening action whatsoever. For most dogs, this is all they ever need. The collar's effect may be further altered by: enclosing the entire collar in latex sheeting (available in any horse supply store), covered in material or slipped through a hair band, wrapped in silk (excellent for finely textured hair coats). Altering the number of prongs facing inward toward the dog also changes the collar's effect; for some dogs, I have used the prong collar inside out.

NEVER let the dog "self-correct" by hitting the end of the lead. Engage the dog verbally & physically, asking for simple tasks like walking with you. Give subtle, fluttering signals - often a mere flexing of the fingers is sufficient. Praise the dog for responding. If the dog bolts away from you and tries to pull, do NOT pull back or sharply check him. Go with him, offering repeated gentle tugs until you have him back under control. Then pay more attention so that doesn't happen again.

For some dogs, in situations of high arousal, owners may need to switch to a single ring in order to engage the limited tightening action. Do NOT automatically hook the leash to just one ring - this may be far more stimulation than the dog needs. An aggressive response can be provoked by such excess stimulation (whether with the prong collar or any other stimuli); however, prong collars do NOT make dogs aggressive."

[Ramon]

In my opinion, the article you described is okay for a sensitive dog that's being trained as a house pet. However, if you have a hard dog like mine, and you're training under heavy distraction (ie. protection), that simply doesn't work.
Weakening the prong collar by positioning it lower, covering the prongs, or turning it inside out is basically turning it into a martingale collar. I tried to train my american bulldog at 5 months in a pre-agility class with a martingale collar, and he nearly tore my shoulder. For other dogs in other situations, a collar with lesser correction might work.
For a hard dog, I think the standard prong collar in the high position is actually more humane than a weakened prong collar or a martingale. You will find that you don't need to jerk the dog's neck around as much when you use the prong collar for maximum correction.

[ptremaine]

overall, I'd tend to agree with Clothier, and I too appreciate her insights. Have recommended her site to many dog owners.

As for my own use of the prong, I hook my lead to both rings on the collar and do not let my dog 'self correct'. She's not super sensitive, but not hard either. I keep the chain and rings on teh right side of her neck, mid-way, not high up. She will continually shake her head if I do, in an attempt to get it lower on her own neck. I appreciate that as a signal that higher up gives her actual pain without even a correction, something I want to avoid.

However, if I wanted to dull the ability of a prong in general, I'd just use another collar, probably her regular nylon flat collar. However, she's very crafty and knows she can surge and pull if she's on the flat collar and we're near the woods. The woods and the possibility of squirrel chasing is such a high arousal for her, I must use a prong to not end up with a torn rotator cuff or worse [she's pulled me to the ground 3 times and twice I ended up in the ER with major pain and bruising of my legs and face]. Until she can be controlled without it, I'm going to be using this prong for a while. I don't see the point in dulling it, as when it's on, she knows that there is NO pulling or surging allowed and she must mind my commands. Even off lead, which I will allow in the open fields farther from traffic, she'll respond to my commands and whistles as long as that prong is on. I noted recently that without it, off lead, she'll just ignore me. :D

Obviously, she's got a long way to go with her coming around to the idea of ME as the boss, and not her. :D

PT

[Judi W]

Corrections, compulsion, training equipment of any kind - is dependent upon the individual dog. To use a less than effective correction regardless of where the collar or what kind of collar is placed is ultimately unkind to the animal and results in nagging and more compulsion later on due to ineffective training. To use more force than is necessary to acquire the desired results is cruel.

Always remember you are training the dog on the end of your leash, not a dog in a book, or in an article, but the one you have. As a handler/trainer there is a learning curve with each and every dog you work, but it is your responsibility to be perceptive, analytical and observant and apply compulsion only after you have taught expectations, do so fairly and effectively. The more experienced you become, the shorter that learning curve becomes but with even your first dog, look and learn - from the dog.

[damp]

Once again you said it all so very well Judi!!!

[Rottlva]

Thank you all for your responses. I am confident that I am placing the prong collar where it should be....and shouldn't have second guessed my trainers.....Susan Clouthier just got me worried. Unfortunately I don't have the years of experience to have your confidence in my training! Until I do, I'll keep training and listening :)