Prong collar vs. Halti/gentle leader

[Rottlva]

Used properly a prong collar is more effective in training then a halti/gentle leader, correct?

Used as a method of control in an area of high stimulation ie: fair with llamas and sheep is a prong collar appropriate?

Can a head halter actually correct a dog?

I ask these questions because I was approached for having my dog on a prong collar in an area of high stimulation. I was told a Halti would be better for him! For better control and for the saftey of the livestock I opted to put the the prong collar as opposed to the normal flat buckle collar he normally wears.

We have been to several training classes and have tried head halters. I don't like them, my dog doesn't like them, and our outings in them are stressful for him and unenjoyable (thus comprimising any training we would get from that outing).

I've always used a prong collar on my dog if need be as I was under the understanding that a head halter just redirected (or shall I say didn't allow) a dogs head and body to go in a certain direction. The prong on the other hand could self regulate the dog and could give a correction if need be.

I'd like some input as I was quite taken a back and slightly offended as to this persons rude comments.

Thanks!

[spidey]

Rottlva: I feel your instincts are correct. I don't believe that a halter has any use as a training tool (it has limited use as an instrument of control, but why not use something which can both help control the dog and which is also a training tool...like a prong collar!), and corrections can be very dangerous to the dog with a halter. I've seen so many dogs looking so miserable in halters that, while I was willing to give them a chance when they first became popular, I no longer think they're appropriate for most dogs. I've also seen dogs have REALLY adverse reactions to them, including trying to bite their owners when they tried to put the halter on, and dogs refusing to move at all while wearing them. If you do a search you'll find a bunch of threads on this very topic. In short: I think you're right. The person who recomended the halter wasn't necessarily wrong, since a halter will give you control over the dog, but they're not useful training tools at all, and a prong collar will give you both control AND a training tool (you can give corrections with it and the dog will also self-correct with it).

[TrinityRun]

<Originally posted by Rottlva - Used properly a prong collar is more effective in training then a halti/gentle leader, correct?>

Correct.

<Used as a method of control in an area of high stimulation ie: fair with llamas and sheep is a prong collar appropriate?>

I wouldn't bring a dog that was not under control to begin with to place like that. Prong or no prong. The collar is a "tool" to aid you in training the dog - not to power steer him through areas of "high stimulation."

<Can a head halter actually correct a dog?>

Depends on the dog. Some dogs need only voice inflection but to a large extent no - it's self correcting.

<I ask these questions because I was approached for having my dog on a prong collar in an area of high stimulation. I was told a Halti would be better for him! For better control and for the saftey of the livestock I opted to put the the prong collar as opposed to the normal flat buckle collar he normally wears. >

"For the safety of the livestock." Again, he shouldn't be in areas where any animal's safety is called into question. He's got a long way to go in his training before he earns the right to venture to places like this. Any public place is a breeding ground for good publicity or bad - it's up to us as owners to control what image we want to project.

<We have been to several training classes and have tried head halters. I don't like them, my dog doesn't like them, and our outings in them are stressful for him and unenjoyable (thus comprimising any training we would get from that outing).>

You use what works for you and your dog. There's nothing wrong with your take on the halters.

<I've always used a prong collar on my dog if need be as I was under the understanding that a head halter just redirected (or shall I say didn't allow) a dogs head and body to go in a certain direction. The prong on the other hand could self regulate the dog and could give a correction if need be. >

The prong collar is a tool - not designed for outings or "need be" situations that arise. And it's not to be self regulated either. It requires proper fitting (key) and timely, balanced corrections.

<I'd like some input as I was quite taken a back and slightly offended as to this persons rude comments. Thanks!>

I think an archive search would be very helpful to you in this situation. I also understand how some comments may not be received well - they eat away at you the more you think about them. I think it's wonderful that you have tried different methods and are training your boy. I'm also glad you didn't respond to her in an angry fashion (does more harm that good, IMO)

Do the search and keep us posted.

:)

[Rottlva]

Lauren, thank you for your advice! I found a wonderful post by Judi W which I think elaborates what you've just told me. Thank you both for helping me understand better :)

I am quoting what I found on a post by Judi W.
"I will confess upfront that I am not a fan of head halters for training purposes. Yes, they control and if that is the goal, fine, but no, they do not assist in training as you have discovered.

I am not at all opposed to students using the pinch when it appears to be appropriate. If it is used as a training tool, it does an excellent job. It should not be used, like the head halter, as a control device. If you have no experience in when and how to give a correction, you will likely not be using it to its advantage. If all your experience in training is with someone who does not believe in correcting a dog, then you might not have the knowledge of how and when to offer corrections properly and how to keep your lead light. Please consider another trainer so that you can move forward. In my experience, dogs that have been exclusively controlled by using a head halter do not advance in their training. They are “controlled” not trained (as you have experienced) and there is a difference. The dogs that arrive in my classes whose owners are dependent upon the head halters never seem to advance until they discard them and go to a collar. The dogs working in head halters are, almost without exception, unhappy campers.

Also, I am a bit puzzled. You are working with a trainer who is dependent on the GL and the dog you have trained using that method is still not leash broke, but you are proceeding to use that same method with your second dog. Why? Please consider that before proceeding. It is much preferred to teach your dog leash manners while it is young than to wait until it is older and heavier methods must be used such as you are facing now. If that has not been done, then yes, the pinch is often an effective tool. What the pinch does is it adds authority and emphasis to corrections. It is not possible to give a correction on a head halter and attempting to do so can be harmful to the dog.

So would a pinch be appropriate? Most likely. But, it should be used with knowlege on how and when to give a correction or you run the risk of simply having a dog that learns to disregard the pressure from the pinch and pulls into it, especially if the handler is accustomed to using constant lead tension to control the dog as with the head halters.

Yes, properly fitted, the pinch works. Yes, it takes instructions on how to use the leash and when to and how to correct. I do not know of any cases where an improperly fitted a pinch has caused damage, it simply becomes ineffective. Improperly fitted is too loose and/or too low on the neck, wherein it only tightens to a limited degree and the dog simply ignores it. That is why I feel it is important that you have a decent instructor. Giving a dog experiences of ignoring handler instructions is what causes damage in my mind. Damage to the relationship and damage to the progression of training. It generates disregard and disrespect of the handler."

[Jamie & Odin]

Certainly can't add anything to Judi's post, but can relate my own experience:

Used a prong for a long time with good success. When I began a concious effort in behavior mod for my rott's fear problems, I decided to go to a halti to be sure I was not inadvertantly giving negative feedback in situations I didn't want to.

It was a disaster! My trainer at the time strongly advocated for the halti, so I stuck with it. Our walks were a constant battle and miserable. He didn't just not move forward with his training, he regressed.

So, I decided to go back to the prong and just pay closer attention to what I was doing. It was the best decision I could have made! He was almost immediately (few days) back to the level of training when we had switched to the halti. He is much happier, much more well behaved, and we are progressing with training very nicely!

[Anne]

I first used a check collar and had no success at all with my Rott pulling. I then enlisted the help of an experienced and very good trainer. He trains on the Halti and I have never had a problem with it since. Sophie learned her commands on a Halti and does not object to having it put on, in fact she is very happy when the Halti comes out because she knows it's walk time. To say that a Halti does not help with training is wrong. It does, the dog learns the commands and does not pull. My dog who would not heel before the Halti now heels on any collar at all. I personally would not use a prong collar, I think the handler must have plenty of experience to use these collars. I have never seen one but have seen pictures of them and they look like instruments of torture. The Halti is a gentle method of training.

[Knucklesmom]

I have to agree with Anne. Knuckles knows it's time for a walk with mom when the gentle leader comes out. I would never tolerate being walked by a dog. (And it is incredible how much of that one sees in the neighbor hood - big or small, they drag their owners behind them!) He didn't like it at first, but I now have no problem getting it on him. (Positive reinforcement!) I really believe this has a calming effect. (So much so that the instructor asked mne to put a regular collar on him for class, because he would fall asleep!) I also have much better luck having Knuckles respond to commands when he is calm. I never liked pinch collars; I had a lab and never used one on her. My neighbor has always used one on her dog, and swears by it, but then again, I don't think my neighbor spent as much time training her dog. Knuckles will also respond properly to commands when wearing a regular collar. I think the bottom line is that you have to use what works best for you and what you and your dog feel most comfortable with.

[Muckdogs]

Originally posted by Anne
I first used a check collar and had no success at all with my Rott pulling. I then enlisted the help of an experienced and very good trainer. He trains on the Halti and I have never had a problem with it since. Sophie learned her commands on a Halti and does not object to having it put on, in fact she is very happy when the Halti comes out because she knows it's walk time. To say that a Halti does not help with training is wrong. It does, the dog learns the commands and does not pull. My dog who would not heel before the Halti now heels on any collar at all. I personally would not use a prong collar, I think the handler must have plenty of experience to use these collars. I have never seen one but have seen pictures of them and they look like instruments of torture. The Halti is a gentle method of training.

People should use what works best for them and is successful for their dog and their objectives. That being said, I think you should think about your objective before deciding. Do you want to teach correct behavior (an integral part of which is correcting bad behavior) or is your primary focus controlling your dog's movements and not teaching correct behavior. It seems to me very simple, the prong collar, used properly is a training tool, the halti is merely a control instrument. One that, IMO, offers little chance to train.

Except for the statement regarding the necessity of handler experience, the next to last sentence of the above quote shows a true misunderstanding of a valuable training tool. It is probably a very good thing for that dog that a prong collar is not used in that circumstance.

[Grendl]

What is a check collar? I see prong collars mentioned frequently in this forum, but no one seems to use the once standard choke chain collar. Have they gone out of fashion? I use them regularly on my dogs, both for training and for walks. Every once in a while the prong collar gets used, and then its back to the choker. I have been very satisfied with it, but I notice that other members do not refer to it. I have never used, or even seen the gentle leader, but my impression from reading here is that it is pointless if you want to leash-train your dog.

[Muckdogs]

They are still used in the working area, we call them fur-savers because the links are oval and one inch in length, thereby saving the fur in some fashion or annother. I think the primary reason that most folks prefer the prong over the choke/fursaver is that it takes far less correction to have the same results in addition to doing far, far, less physical damage to the dog. Somewhere, there is a study posted ont his site that specifically detailed a post mortem study on dogs that have been trained with prongs vs. chokes and the esophageal and larynx damage done by using the choke was a lot more. IMHO, chokes, fur-savers included (and I always have one on my dog for control, not correction) are inhumane training tools. I much prefer the prong and particularly like use of an ecollar.

[Muckdogs]

Found the site that references the study, but not the study.

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

[Judi W]

I use a standard slip collar and if used properly they should not do any damage at all. I do recommend the pinch where the owner has not done sufficient ground work teaching the dog to be light to leash pressure and is disrespected by the dog as it provides emphasis and authority. It does not substitute for, but enhances training for those that are a bit behind the ball.

[angrygenius]

I use both the choke and prong, and find both useful. My only comment on the prong is that if it is used as a substitute for training, as the head halters USUALLY are, there can be serious injury to the dog. I have seen, on more than one occasion, large breeds with holes in their necks from prongs used improperly, and even had one of my dogs do himself an injury by lungeing against a prong while his lead as looped over a faucet(I was getting him water). There is no substitute for training. JG

[Anne]

I must agree with Muckdogs in one instance which is that I would not be a good contender for the use of a prong collar. I simply do not like the look of them.
As for the head halter, in this instance I strongly disagree. The head halter is not only used as a method of control but also to teach obedience training. My girl learnt her commands on a Halti and will carry them out now on a flat collar or a check collar as well as the Halti. If I had only wanted to control my dog rather than obedience train her I would not have bothered going to the expense of a private trainer. This trainer is known to us here on the forum and is well respected. I am sure that if the Halti was basically useless in the area of obedience then he would not have suggested we use it. In any case the proof that it works as a training tool is evident in the behaviour of my dog.
I will not knock anyones method of a training aid. It is not for me to say what works for each and every dog. I just don't like the look of prong collars and that is why I won't use one.

[Grendl]

Muckdogs, thanks for the link to the Prong Collar site. I shall rethink my training methods. Maybe I need to get a newer prong collar. The one I have and use occasionally is 25 years old, and was purchased for a headstrong malamute. It has very large prongs and looks like a medievil torture device. I have seen much smaller ones on dogs at training classes. I have a large male Rott, and it might be a benefit to me if he wore a prong collar when I walk him. The one I have does not have enough links to go around his neck.