Clicker training?

[Ramon]

Originally posted by DailyDouble

most national events are not title-earning events. the dogs already have the title and are doing nothing more than repeating what ever phase it is. 1, 2 or 3.

Before I got into the sport, I thought the same way. Now that I'm getting more and more involved and know about politics and the like, I have a new perspective. In the world of Schutzhund, comparing a local decoy to a national decoy or a local judge to a national judge is like comparing a corner store to Walmart, or a pomeranian to a mastiff. I've seen enough local trials and local Schutzhund III dogs to know the difference. People in my own club who've gotten local 3's but couldn't make it past the local or regional level will be the first to tell you that they're wanting a better dog. The philosophy that any Schutzhund III title (even one in your own backyard judged by your own circle of friends) is good enough is one of the reasons why there are so few breeding programs that consistently produce good working dogs.

Originally posted by DailyDouble

i use food in obedience. i don't feed my dogs before that exercise either. health and drive purposes.

i crate my dogs for a minimum of 3 hours before going to training and crate them for an hour after wards too. yah i put them in their runs. yah i want them to want to be with me even more. ain't gonna happen if i'm laying on the floor in front of the tv with them before training.

isolationism. in moderation it builds rapport and drive for handler. used incrorectly it is cruel.

Using food drive and isolation in the way you describe it is fine. That's about the extent that I use it too. One of the reasons I incorporate compulsion is so I don't have to go to the extremes that I described earlier. I do know that a lot of people go to those extremes, especially when they want to compete at the top level. That just goes to show what is involved in getting there.

[DailyDouble]

nah, ya missed my point ramon.

those SchH3s you see at the nationals earned their titles at CLUB trials. which means that amongst the garbage is a gem or two.

dogs at the nationals do not earn their 3s there; they REPEAT their 3s there.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by DNeff

Most of you seem to feel that you can't do well with positive methods. Why not just use the prong or e collar?
It has been said repeatedly that it is easier, faster and more effective to use compulsion, why would someone use all positive methods and then resort to those extremes. The logic there doesn't add up.
I have a hard time believing someone would go to all the trouble to establish a positive program and then resort to that. Especially if they could save time and trouble according to most of you and start out using compulsion from the beginning.

With purely positive methods, I am convinced it take an individual type of dog. One that I personally wouldn't mind breeding for (only if outstanding) because it shows all the natural drives. There's a major difference between agility and schutzhund though. Sometimes it is a lot harder to be truly focused and motivated enough to devote their entire energy on earning that one thing because they encounter a different stress than they would in a much less stressing sport as agility. If there's a flaw in your dog's temperament it's just about guaranteed to surface in schutzhund.

With that being said let me explain to you why a program should be started off purely positive and then go through a correction phase. It's the attitude you create in the foundation for the work through classical conditioning that you benefit from keeping it purely positive. The first conditioned association you have with something is the longest lasting. Not saying you cannot condition a different negative attitude because you can. Also if you teach with a purely positive program and do a good job of generalizing then you wouldn't need many corrections anyway when you come to that phase. This is because the dog knows what to do to avoid further correction.

So you say, if you can teach a dog and generalize through purely positive methods then why go through a correction phase? I've even asked that myself because I too want to look out for the well being of my dog. A schutzhund trial is not dependant of the conditions of that day. If it rains there's still a trial, if a horse runs by there's still a trial, if it's freezing cold or hellacious hot the trial will still go on. It is for these situations that make working undesirable that you've got to introduce your dog with a situation of no options. It can be something real simple like a rabbit running in the background that we never even spotted. Prey drive can be a challenge because it's hella reinforcing to satisfy this drive. A lot of people get away with purely positive programs because their dogs lack prey drive too. I knew a woman AKC judge in agility that used purely positive methods that actually thought dogs with prey drive were mean. The faint smell of a bitch in season could be enough to make the dog want to investigate.

Also, just because someone has started a correction phase after having a purely positive foundation doesn't mean that they're going to get all extreme about it and it also doesn't mean that positive motivators aren't being used anymore.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that there are some dogs that go through a purely positive motivational programs that never ever feel the extreme amplified great feeling some of these dogs in schutzhund feel. It's very reinforcing to let your dog use their natural abilities to great potential and let a dog be a dog. A dog that lays on the couch and just eats and sleeps with the occasional walk is not really experiencing life as a true dog. purely positive or not IMO

If you also look at dogs interact (i don't know how you feel about any aversive at all) they too do negative things to each other that keep their relationship in harmony. It's very natural. Do you have kids? Do you keep a PURELY positive lifestyle with them?

[Judi W]

I'd like to add just a small note. In AKC obedience there are no second commands permitted either (at least not if you wish to qualify) so the above is not limited purely to ScH competition. Herding, agility and even tracking you can rattle away with encouragement. Not so in either AKC obedience or ScH although the permitted commands differ somewhat. (stay is used in AKC and an extra "fetch" or "bring" can be used in ScH after the command to jump, but the philosophy is the same. Dog is to respond to the command at the one-time instruction.

I don't believe "motivational" training is that new and revolutionary. I have books from the '30's that promote motivation for the teaching phase. I believe that trainers who do not use motivation in teaching are the exception not the rule. Note, I specify the teaching phase. After being comfortable that the exercise has been taught and understood by the dog, is the time when most dogs need to also be taught that response is not optional and that is where the term "obedience" comes in. With some dogs, a single session with a couple of corrections be they strong verbal or physical corrections, does it. With others, it might require a bit more.

Just as there are some vegetarians who eat no animal products at all ever, and there are vegetarians who eat fish, eggs and cheese I believe there are clicker trainers who never ever even use the word "no" and there are trainers who are willing to let the dog know when it is wrong as well as when it is correct. I know several of both kinds. Those who do withhold the information about what is incorrect from the dog are rarely found in any competition arenas.

[DNeff]

Valdes43, What I am questioning is if someone when to all the trouble of training to Sch III using only motivational methods with no intention of using corrections, why would they then revert to these tactics that Ramon described in his quote below. That makes no sense to me. That is the logic I am questioning.

To even try earning a National ScH III with purely positive training, someone's going to need a LOT of patience.
Even if someone does try it, I'll have a few questions for him/her:

How much food did the dog get to eat in a week? Close to zero? Zero?

How long did you keep the dog confined to a closet or a crate? That whole week? More?

I am well aware that positive and motivational foundations are usually used for most training methods. I agree that it makes a more effective program. I'm not questioning that.

I also agree that training for agility is much easier than obedience by far. I compete in both, so I know first hand what it takes to do both.

A schutzhund trial is not dependant of the conditions of that day. If it rains there's still a trial, if a horse runs by there's still a trial, if it's freezing cold or hellacious hot the trial will still go on. It is for these situations that make working undesirable that you've got to introduce your dog with a situation of no options.

I don't know how many obedience trials you have attended, but quite a lot goes on there as well. They are held outside, in the heat, beside conformation rings with cheering spectators, handlers throwing bait to stack their dogs, photographers squeeking toys for pictures, etc... I've seen birds get stuck in buildings, slamming in to the metal walls during exercises. Such is life in the ring, you train your dog to work through it. It is just as unacceptable for your dog to stop working in the obedience ring as it is on the Schutzhund field. It's still all about proofing. I can still proof my dog for all that, my dog can still learn to work through it, and I still don't have to physically correct my dog.

I am well aware that adversives occur in life, why would I add any more if I can be just as successful doing it without adding a physical adversive. That's my point, if I can do it well, where is the problem in that method. I don't feel that my dog is any less reliable than any dog trained on a prong. Yes, I know there are dogs out there better than my dog, I also know my dog is doing better than alot of other dogs out there.

Prey is used quite a bit in positive training methods. Just because a few people don't, doesn't mean everyone does that way.

Judi,

I don't believe "motivational" training is that new and revolutionary. I have books from the '30's that promote motivation for the teaching phase.

Yes, but I am talking about going beyond the teaching phase. That's were the problem lies with finding people who can proof without using physical corrections at the advanced levels. I personnally have seen very few people doing this until recently. What I have seen in the past is people relying on physical corrections for proofing.

Dawn
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