Clicker training?

[mark_sherry]

The question here isn't whether or not clicker training works. Many trainers use clicker training AS PART of their training program, and I agree with that. My point is that I believe it should not be the entire training program. Dogs trained using different techniques and implements, especially large, working breeds, perform better. Why would you use a clicker to get the same results when you could use a prong collar and get the same results 50 times quicker?! You're wasting time, energy, and are boring the heck out of a motivated dog. By the way, the use of a prong collar doesn't mean that training isn't fun for the dog. My GSDs in the past used to go nuts when I pulled out the prong. They knew it was time to go to work.

DNeff, I've worked with many trainers who use clicker-only/positive-reinforcement-only approaches, and I was not impressed with their success. A very reputable and well-established AKC trainer found herself chasing her dog and yelling for people to catch it for her at a seminar. The dog wouldn't down or recall on command. I wonder how many people walked away from her that day and threw away their clickers? A dog trained properly on a prong collar would have recalled and downed. And the majority of sport trainers use them for this reason alone.

[valdes43]

Originally posted by mark_sherry
The question here isn't whether or not clicker training works. Many trainers use clicker training AS PART of their training program, and I agree with that. My point is that I believe it should not be the entire training program. Dogs trained using different techniques and implements, especially large, working breeds, perform better. Why would you use a clicker to get the same results when you could use a prong collar and get the same results 50 times quicker?! You're wasting time, energy, and are boring the heck out of a motivated dog. By the way, the use of a prong collar doesn't mean that training isn't fun for the dog. My GSDs in the past used to go nuts when I pulled out the prong. They knew it was time to go to work.

DNeff, I've worked with many trainers who use clicker-only/positive-reinforcement-only approaches, and I was not impressed with their success. A very reputable and well-established AKC trainer found herself chasing her dog and yelling for people to catch it for her at a seminar. The dog wouldn't down or recall on command. I wonder how many people walked away from her that day and threw away their clickers? A dog trained properly on a prong collar would have recalled and downed. And the majority of sport trainers use them for this reason alone.

Mark,

The clicker/word/conditioned reinforcer is an EXCELLENT teaching tool. No, I am not a purely positive trainer but I definitely take the time and invest in my dog's attitude by TEACHING through purely positive methods. So what if you can teach a dog 50 times quicker with a prong? It's not only about executing an exercise, it's also very much about the attitude you create in your dog for the exercise. I prefer my dog to think it out (for learning is much more solid and absolute this way) then trying to get my dog to nervously figure out that when the aversive doesn't come he is correct.

Compulsion definitely has it's role in training but it's no where near the introduction to an exercise.

Rank issues and training exercises are 2 different things.

[DNeff]

Dogs trained using different techniques and implements, especially large, working breeds, perform better

Actually as stated in my previous posts I have out shown and out scored many large breed dogs on many occasions that were trained on prong collars and other methods. So no, they don't always perform better.
I'm not saying a trainer can't be successful with prong collars, a skilled trainer with good timing can be very successful. I would much rather see someone screw up using a clicker than a prong collar or an e collar. At least if you click the wrong thing or reinforce at the wrong time youdon't run the risk of your dog ending up with fear issues or lose it's confidence.

boring the heck out of a motivated dog

Actually 90% of the dogs I've worked and my students have worked with were much more motivated by clicker training, than with correction based training. My dog sparkles in the ring with enthusiasm. He finds training a blast and regularly asks for more work since it's always positive, fun and motivation. I'd be curious to see what one of these "boring" positive sessions looks like. Makes we wonder about the skill of the trainer using them.

As for a prong being fifty times faster, give me a break. In our classes, students can use positive or compulsion based methods to teach heeling, I have never seen more than a few weeks difference in the progress of the students regardless of what method they used. It is of course directly related to the skill of the trainer. A bad clicker trainer could take forever, as could a bad trainer using a prong.

A dog trained properly on a prong collar would have recalled and downed.

So you're saying any dog " properly" trained with a prong would have acted correctly??? Maybe, maybe not. Do you know how many dog's I've seen that were trained correctly on a prong, leave the ring, not DOR, etc..... Yes even very good trainers who use prongs fail sometimes. Every dog no matter how they were trained fails sometimes. Welcome to the real world. I have yet to meet a dog that is a 100% reliable, 100% of the time no matter how they were trained.
You statements have been about always or never. Very rarely is anything with dogs all or nothing. I know for a fact these methods can be very succesful since I have a dog who is out there doing it. To say that it can't be done, just means you haven't had the exposure to someone doing it right.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CD NA NAJ NAC NGC NJC TT CGC
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[mark_sherry]

Then the majority of trainers that I've worked with haven't been doing it right. Huh. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not advocating not using clicker training as part of the training method. I think you guys are missing the point and are reading only what you want to read in my posts. I use a variety of training methods. The prong is one of them, yes, but so is postive reinforcement. It's the combination of methods that's important, and that's the only point that I've been making from the start. The use of a prong collar doesn't necessitate a negative response from a dog. I've never had a dog get nervous or upset when using a prong. If you're able to use it effectively w/o creating this attitude in your dog and your creating a dog that sees it as an execution-only command, then you don't understand how to use the prong collar correctly. 100% of my dogs are motivated and enthusiastic about their training, prongs or not. It has little to do with the implement but rather the relationship of dog and handler that counts here. Read that again. The implement shouldn't determine motivation and drive. The dog's desire to please the handler determines that (and genetics too). That's why I'm not against clicker training as a whole. I'm not against it anyway. It doesn't hurt a dog. I just wouldn't use it as my only method of training. And I think if you'd be honest with yourself, you'll discover that most of the people on the podiums would concur.

[DNeff]

If I can get scores of 197, 197 1/2, 194, #8 Rottweiler ARC Novice Std for 2001, 2 ties for HIT, etc... how is it that using a purely positive training program is NOT as successful as any mixed method program would be?
I not telling you that you shouldn't use a mixed method. You orginially stated that purely positive methods are too limiting. I am pointing out that you can be very successful using a purely positive training program. There seems to be the misconception, in rotties especially, that you can't do it unless you plan on correcting. I'm here to dispell that myth. Not only can you, you can do it in style.
I think it's great that there are so many options out there for trainers. I just want to be clear that there are other ways that do work just as well. They may not be as popular or as widely used but they still can work very effectively.
I don't doubt your dogs are very happy workers, I've seen tons of happy dogs who are trained using prongs or e collars. I have also seen a few that didn't respond as well to those methods.

Implementation does not determine drive, but it can effect it. Especially if delivered incorrectly or poorly timed. That's true with any method, not just prongs. Unfortunately I have seen some trainers who had poor timing and poor skills cause their dog to show decreased motivation and drive.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CD NA NAJ NAC NGC NJC TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
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[mark_sherry]

Dawn,

I agree with everything you said in your last post. The "too limiting" response from my earlier post reflects how it would work under my training program. And it also reflects how I think the average trainer does using this method. Obviously, the conscientious trainer who is well-educated and ever-learning will know how to by-pass the common hang-ups of the method. And that's true with every method as well. With your success in this method, I think you and I were discussing two totally different levels regarding clicker training. I was addressing the novice and the inexperienced "trainers" who can't avoid pitfalls and see problems as they would arise. Anyone who does well in competition with any implement obviously knows how to do these things. For the average person taking the first two levels of obedience, I don't think they get enough out of using just one method only. My wife is a devout positive-only trainer, and she's good, so I have this discussion/debate with her all of the time. We've just agreed to disagree, and I work my dogs, and she works hers.

[Ramon]

Originally posted by DNeff

I think many people have the mistaken impression that you can't train a dog using all positive methods and end up with a good working dog. I have done all of my obedience and agility training with my rottie using all positive methods.

Getting AKC obedience titles with purely positive methods is very impressive. I probably couldn't do it. But if you REALLY want to impress me, I'd like to see someone get a national level Schutzhund III title with only positive methods. That includes doing protection, and NEVER using force when proofing your dog for obedience. That has never been done, and never will be done. Sheila Booth?? Nah! She had to use a SHARPENED PRONG collar when she was training for Schutzhund.

[mark_sherry]

And the difference in the ScH III obedience is precision and exactness, and that's where a good prong collar comes in handy. I know that I couldn't work my dogs up to this level of obedience without one, but maybe I'm just not that good of a trainer. Of course, I am not, and that's why I seek the help of professional trainers who've been there and done that. Those who I've talked to who've competed at the national and international level and have those titles have always told me that the prong collar is essential in their training.

[DNeff]

Actually Sheila wasn't using totally positive methods until she got her Mal, Vino. Her GSD was trained to SchIII before that.
It is my understanding that Sheila worked with a gentleman who raised a GSD who did get his Sch III using only positive methods. When she was writing the book he was at SchI. When I saw her in 2000 he had achieved his Sch III. I will have to see if I can dig up the name.
I'm sure it can be done if someone puts their mind to it. The problem with doing it is finding someone to help you. Just finding trainers that could work with me on utility that didn't rely on corrections or force was hard. I can only imagine the "mind set" in schutzhund is like. And I can assure you most of it is mind set. I'm sure if some talented trainers worked at it they could. Saying that no one ever could, is like saying the earth is flat. Not so long ago people said you couldn't get an OTCH without using corrections. That has been disproved. Before you know it, those evil positive trainers might be joining schutzhund clubs... eeekkk!
Sorry I couldn't help myself. ;)

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CD NA NAJ NAC NGC NJC TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
http://members.aol.com/rottweilerworld

[Ramon]

Originally posted by DNeff

It is my understanding that Sheila worked with a gentleman who raised a GSD who did get his Sch III using only positive methods.

I think you're referring to Gottfried Dildei, who helped Sheila write her book, "Schutzhund Obedience Training in Drive". If purely positive includes using prong collars (even the sharpened kind), then I guess by that definition the training was purely positive. It's clear from reading that book that they both preferred the prong collar when teaching heeling for Schutzhund. What normal people and AKC think is "straight" is not really "straight" to a national level Schutzhund judge, and when you get enough crooked sits, lags, mouthing on the dumbells, etc., you've lost.
Also, the book never goes into protection training. To get to the highest level of the sport, a dog has to be hard enough to take hard stick hits and still maintain a committed bite on the sleeve. You have to have a dog that's born with that attitude or he'll never make it to the highest level. Try making that same dog "out" the sleeve without force.

Originally posted by DNeff

I'm sure it can be done if someone puts their mind to it.

I commend you for your positive attitude! Go for it! I'd really like to see it. :D

[DNeff]

Actually, the guy I am refering to is Ron Harris. The book she was writing at the time was Purely Positive Training, not Training in Drive. She is the first to admit that she used compulsion in training. She also decided to stop.
That seems to be a growing trend out there. Which is why I am sure it won't be too long before you see some positively trained rotties out on schutzhund field.
Even Police K-9 handlers are going that way. Look at Steve White, he uses motivation methods now. It really isn't so hard to believe. It just helps to be open minded and to be willing to accept the challenge.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CD NA NAJ NAC NGC NJC TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
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[mark_sherry]

My questions regarding using purely positive training for ScH is this: Is it necessary to accept the challenge? I don't think so. Not in ScH anyway. You can work a ScH I dog in positive-only training. But IMO, you'd be working only prey drive. Prey drive can be worked in positive training. It's a comfortable drive for them to be in, and there's no threat whatsoever. It's a natural drive for those with the right genetics, so positive-only training with the right dog will produce results with this drive. The defensive drive, on the other hand, is a different story. Here, it's a matter of genetics, first of all, and then it's a matter of "pushing" the dog into the drive and working it slowly. You're going to have little success developing this drive in a positive-only training program. The final drive, and the one that is necessary to have a ScH III dog, is the fight drive. And there's no way that anyone can convince me that a dog can be taken through to that level with positive-only training. Another issue, that Ramon brought up, is that there is a difference between AKC obedience and ScH obedience. It's got to be perfect to earn the III title, and perfection, I don't think, can be easily obtained with the clicker only.

[DNeff]

As I said before it is my understand that Ron Harris titled his dog Lars to Sch III using positive methods. So it has and can be done. I'm sure it wasn't easy. Just because a path is difficult doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Even if it is only to say you tried.

You say you can't "easily" get perfection using positive methods, of course you can't! How many methods do you know of that yeild perfection readily?! If it was easy to be perfect, don't you think there'd be alot more dogs out there with tons of titles and perfect scores. Any trainer who says they can reach perfection with any method easily has my admiration. Most people I know work very very hard to get as close as they can as often as they can.

Dawn
U-CD Cammcastle's Mystic Riven CD NA NAJ NAC NGC NJC TT CGC
http://members.aol.com/dplantier
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[valdes43]

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT I am in total belief that it takes a very certain type of dog to accomplish that goal in a sport like Schutzhund. Dogs are selfish and are always going to do what is more reinforcing to them. The motivators in your training program must be more reinforcing than anything else. It also take strong nerve to where the dog won't care about other environmental stimulus' and will always focus on just the attaining the motivator. And then you must extensively generalize your training, and I mean go the extra 10 miles!! You never know when you will be at a trial and any distraction can just spontaneously appear. It happens!

DNeff, If you'd like to meet up sometime. I think I might be near you.

[mark_sherry]

Dawn,
Semantics. . . don't take one word and blow it into another proportionate argument. "Easily" generalizes the nature of one training method with another. No, it is not easy to get a dog to ScH III level competition. It's hard work. But when you take a look at the two approaches, one that's positive-only and the other than uses a variety of implements, then you can make a comparison between what's easy and what's not easy. It's easy to train a dog to heal using positive-only methods. It's not easy to keep that dog from disobeying when you do positive-only training. Once a dog knows what's expected of him, he will test you and refuse. This is where the prong collar benefits you. The correction and refocusing of duty for the dog. I can train the positive retrieve just as well, if not better, than the forced retrieve. But, herein, you're teaching the dog the command and what's expected of her. The "fun" part is moving on from there, and this is the real beginning of any ScH work. Once a dog knows the command and what's expected of her, you can't assume that that approach will continue to get you through to the higher level. It's not going to happen. And you can read many books and watch many training videos from hundreds of experts who've been there and know that they agree with the same concept. In ScH and PP, there's no one out there using a positive-only approach who's getting the job done at the highest level. And if they're trying, I don't think they understand the drives behind their dogs well enough. But like I said, if I'm wrong about this, I'll be the first to eat crow. I haven't seen it yet. The one who does it will have my absolute greatest respect, and I'll go to any seminar they have to learn from them -- because he/she will be the best trainer in the world to pull it off.
Mark