Electronic Collars

[rottnelmo]

How do you guys feel about electronic collars?

I would especially like to hear from people who have used them correctly, been instructed by some one knowledgeable on how to use them and what your experiences have been with them.

I know that alot of retreiving breeds have use them, and they work for them, but what about for rotties?

I recently had the opportunity to see one used correctly by an experienced trainer, as well as thoroughly discussed his theory and the theory of e-collars (electronic not elizabethian). I am intrigued, but still deciding.

I may have opened a can of worms, but I want to hear what everyone has to say, good and bad...just dont crucify me.

[Vicki]

I've have many times wished dearly I could put a shock collar on any number of humans, see if it helped them understand their responsibility as a dog owner. :)

I don't use them, but wanted to let you know you probably are not looking at a SHOCK collar on the gun dogs. You are looking instead at a REMOTE collar, which emits only differing tones, not shocks.

[Sharon Marples]

Why would anyone crucify you? This is an open forum and as such, everyone is entitled to state their questions and opinions as they see fit.

I for one am a great supporter of electronic collars WHEN they are used right. We have used them for training purposes (for barking, running away, etc) for many years with excellent results. It takes a while to learn how to use them and you should get instructions from someone who knows them and can tell you how to apply your training to the particular problem you are correcting or training on your dog. When used correctly, they can be a humane, safe way of training dogs.

NOTE: The key word here is "correctly!" Be sure to that you receive the proper training to use them correctly! Don't abuse your dog while learning yourself.......

Sharon Marples

[rottnelmo]

I've have many times wished dearly I could put a shock collar on any number of humans, see if it helped them understand their responsibility as a dog owner

I agree with you there! [':)'] But, I am a responsible dog owner...I am just looking into what is available to me as a trainer and what tools are out there.

but wanted to let you know you probably are not looking at a SHOCK collar on the gun dogs. You are looking instead at a REMOTE collar, which emits only differing tones, not shocks.

Yes, some collars may be tone collars on the gun dogs, but the particular place I went to does use shock or electronic collars with excellent results. I also know of quite a few gun dog trainers that use shocks not tones.

I for one am a great supporter of electronic collars WHEN they are used right. We have used them for training purposes (for barking, running away, etc) for many years with excellent results. It takes a while to learn how to use them and you should get instructions from someone who knows them

Sharon, this is exactly why I am looking into the electronic collars. I spent three hours at a training facility that specializes in the use of these collars on Monday night. My friend does use them on her dogs with EXCELLENT success, I have used them in the most distant past, but not recently.

My biggest fear is making sure that if I decide to use the electronic collar myself that I am using it in the correct manner and I am not uselessly frying up my dog. That is the last thing I want to do.

I want to use it for Elmo's comes and his pulling. While I am on a prong collar he is a dear, but still will pull through the prong collar occasionally.

I did have him with me (he was supposed to be just riding along), and we brought him in as a distraction to my friends dog. Then after about another hour of talking. I asked the trainer how this could better my dog and if it would work on him. Elmo is super sensitive.

I do have to say that I let him work Elmo for about a half hour and within 10 minutes he was a completely different dog. He was coming on the first command and was heeling like a dream. He hasn't even offered to pull on the leash since then.

I know that this isn't a quick fix and that I still have to work at it...but it really seems to have made a difference, at least on my dog.

I am planning on going back for another training session with the same trainer on Monday, then we are going to decide if we should invest in an electronic collar. (They are expensive!). Plus my husband wasn't with me, so I want to make sure he is totally okay with this. If we decide to continue with this method, we are going to start with 6 lessons, with me using the collar minimally between sessions, then go from there.

Thanks for your reply, Sharon.

Ps. I just know that when there are touchy subjects sometimes it gets heated.

[Vicki]

Shock collars on gun dogs make me uneasy. If they break the birds wing then send the dog after the bird, I'd run. See if they want to tell you that hunting dogs must be kept isolated from all other dogs and humans; there are some very abusive myths that live on to torment many hunting dogs. Here's a list of better ways to train if you are interested: PositiveGunDogs-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

I do not believe in using shock collars for nuts and bolts training. Shutting down a behavior is NOT the equivalent of actually teaching the dog what is expected. I have found, generally, those who want to use shock collars for the foundational training want a quick fix, "completely train your dog in 25 minutes, or less"; as Mom always said, if it sounds too good to be true . . . .

[Mick Trainer]

Electris collars when used correctly are indeed a very effective training tool that can give the user much flexability. Contrary to common uneducated belief they are infact very gentle to the dog, teach and train very quickly and can create clarity in the training process where it once may have been lacking making the dogs responses not only far sharper but allowing for far more motivation and praise as too correct responses.

They are indeed very effective when used on gun dogs etc. And in the use of escape training for strong dogs that already know the response needed they are very effective as well as in the use of teaching dogs to consistantly ignore behavior. They are also very effective at gaining control in focus work and are the best way to deliver the most mild correction for training that is at a high level of response but not perfect.

In terms of fixing high level behavioral problems such a cattle killing or dog to dog aggression, at the final stages of proofing they are invaluable.

However for me the down side comes when people try to use them to "Teach" a command or response rather then proof and sharpen an already existing responce. The most common negative contigency with all forms of compulsion whether they be positive punishment or negative re-enforcement is the use of them when the dog does not know what is required of them and therefore cannot work out how to avoid the stimulation that comes from them (also if they are not used as a systematic form of training but rather just rage etc at a dog that just does not follow commands that it has neve been taught). With e-collars (I do not like nor use the term "shock collars" as this brings with it negative conitations that should not apply as this is the incorrect use of the collar) this can be made worse if the person stimulates the dog incorretly and thus the dog does not understand what is required of it. This however is not a complete arguement against the use of these collars. For me a poor owner can use anything incorrectly, but many of us can gain great results with the correct use of such apparatis.

In the end e-collars do require a greater levels of knowledge in to learning principles but if the handler has this the results that can be gained by there use can be fantastic. In recent times much has been written against such equipment. Much of which has come from people clearly who know little about their use and applications, strengths and weaknesses who believe that they are used to say "bad dog, ZAP". Education towards the use of such collars will lead people away from this belief.

Mick.

[Vicki]

Many happy hunting dogs have never seen an ecollar, and yet they are superb dogs. Remember they are doing what they were bred to do, and what they love. Still, since I have haven't seen many rotties out flushing birds, it's probably not too much of an issue.

I would say in the hands of an actual "trainer", that being someone who understands training principles and practices, not to mention someone who understands the best way for the dog at hand, an ecollar may be a tool. I have seen them used, for example, to snake proof dogs. A short term limited use, with a specific goal, by a trainer who was dead on with his timing.

The problem is not only misuse in some deliberate way, but misuse encouraged by the seminars some of these companies put on. I saw a demonstration with Tritronics, where they had ecollars on puppies! They were explaining how "quick" an ecollar made dog training, it was "magic". Of course I was gagging, and did make the point with those watching, or at least tried to, that there certainly is another way to go with puppies. I would imagine the only "trainers" putting ecollars on puppies have a ecollar company signing their paychecks.

Training is supposed to not only teach the dog something, but to be fun for both dog and human. I dread seeing someone whose dog has no particular issues or problems, think an ecollar looks "interesting" and who wants to use it for "training" in general.

[sophie's-mom]

I sent Sophie to a trainer that used e-collars in the training. It worked out really well. :) The mindset behind their training was not as it was listed in the instructions for the collar. As a matter of fact, when I was being shown the collar I was told, "do NOT try to do it like they say in the instructions, that's just not right." She let me take the booklet home and read it. The instructions say to give your dog the command and then hold the button on the remote until they comply with the command. That is TERRIBLE!!! I thought. Then the instructions gave procedures on how to get your dog in a crate, "have the dog stand outside of the crate, thread the lead through the back of the crate and over the top to the front where you are standing (in front of the dog), give your dog the "crate" command and then hold the remote while gently pulling on the lead, do not release until your dog is completely in the crate"

In my opinion, the thing that has caused these collars to be so bad is the instructions that actually came with the collar!! I'd like to put one on the guy that wrote the instructions and tell him to re-write them, then I'D hold the remote button until he complied! :D :D :D

Anyway, the kennel that I took Sophie to was a lab kennel, they trained all their own dogs. They did not use the collar as a DEMAND for the dog to figure out what they wanted, they didn't use the collar as a PUNISHMENT for what the dog did wrong, they used it as a focusing tool only. And then they gave me procedures on how to work with my dog with and without the collar so that the learned behavior was not only present when the collar was on. I also have lifetime return lessons, should I ever slack off on my end of the training! :)

[rottnelmo]

Mick ~ that was a great response! Thank you so much for taking the time to write all of that. That is exactly what I am learning from my trainer. That it is to sharpen an already known command not teach a command and confuse them.

Elmo does know all of his commands: Come, Here, Front, heel, no pull (on the leash) just fine on his prong collar, but as soon as I switch to a flat or choke I have a heck of a time with him. I just dont like battling him for attention.

Vicki~ I totally agree that training should be fun, but how fun is getting a correction or constantly pulling on a choke chain? In my opinion not much fun for me or the dog nor is arguing with my dog when on his flat.

Have you ever tried an e-collar? Before I allowed Elmo to be nicked with one, I tried it on myself. The first few levels I could barely feel it. Then when it was turned about to 20 (out of a possible 160) I could feel it but it didnt make me jump, it got my attention, but didnt hurt me. So, I would think that if it is not hurting me, it is not hurting my dog. Also when a dog is nicked the correction (the shock) is a fraction of a second in length.

I also have yet to use the collar outside of supervision of someone knowledgeable. I am not using it to needlessly shock my dog or to do it out of frustartion.

Yes, they work and yes, they work quickly. Is it a miracle cure? No. Is it for puppies? CERTAINLY NOT! I would never even dream of putting an e-collar on a pup nor would my trainer.

I agree that people who think they are "interesting" or "quick fixes" should not use them, nor should they be used with out the instruction of a knowledgeable trainer. Its the same with any collar, they can all be used incorrectly and they all can damage a dog.

[Vicki]

One of the very best training aids is a pencil and paper. If you are giving constant corrections, something is not working. Make a training plan, then keep a journal of how it is going. Consider why the "corrections" are ineffective. If the dog works well at times and not so well at other times, what are the differences? Is it a certain type of distraction? Is it a certain type of command? Proofing dogs can be a slow business, as dogs do not generalize well. The perfect recall in the house may fall apart in the yard, and the perfect recall in the yard may fall apart at the dog park. Usually it's a function of going too far too fast, the dog needs to have distractions worked into the proofing phase. For example, I'll have my husband run around the yard with a toy, during training sessions, so I can work on focusing the dog in the face of a "fun" distraction. Merely "upping" the correction does not address the core issue.

How will the ecollar fit in the training plan?

[Mick Trainer]

Vicki Wrote "The problem is not only misuse in some deliberate way, but misuse encouraged by the seminars some of these companies put on. I saw a demonstration with Tritronics, where they had ecollars on puppies! They were explaining how "quick" an ecollar made dog training, it was "magic". Of course I was gagging, and did make the point with those watching, or at least tried to, that there certainly is another way to go with puppies. I would imagine the only "trainers" putting ecollars on puppies have a ecollar company signing their paychecks. Vicki this really gets under my skin. I work really hard to educate people as to the benfits of such equpiment, the gentleness of it etc and then these "people" (I use the term very loosly) use it like this. No wonder it is such a hard slog. Man this is just so stupid. I have never had it explained like this and have attended Tritronics lectures etc so I hope that things have changed. I will write and find out. This is the same mentality of those that want one that is more powerful. If you want power then you dont know how to use it. Give me low level adjustability over power anyday.

Training is supposed to not only teach the dog something, but to be fun for both dog and human Very true and if used correctly it will be for both. Like so many things in the end we are responsible for how it turns out.

Rottnelmo Wrote "Elmo does know all of his commands: Come, Here, Front, heel, no pull (on the leash) just fine on his prong collar, but as soon as I switch to a flat or choke I have a heck of a time with him. I just dont like battling him for attention." I would say here like Vicki has said that there is a problem in the training technique or its application that you need to look for first before looking at an e-collar. Your dog has trouble understanding and therefore being conditioned to know what "heal" means. Any piece of equipment is a teaching tool used to condition a responce into a dog from a given trigger (command). Once the equipment is removed the command should still get the desired response, if not then there is a problem at one point in the teaching or training procedure. I would be looking at going back and reteaching this command (as he already has some idea this should be quick) and fixing up what ever it was that you missed. This is not to say that an e-collar would not work initially but I would say that it would have limited long term effectiveness.

I am not trying to have a go at you here or anything so please dont take it personal. It is just the realism of the matter. Also once you have gone back a bit and re tought heal make sure not to be using your pinch collar to pull the forging dog back into position. It is very important to change direction evertime he forges rather then pulling him back into position as this will cause a raliance on the equipment which could be a big part of your problem. This is one of the big problems with traditional training where veryone is lined up and they all walk forward, turn left etc or walk in circles one following the other. If you would like me to go into this more I can.

I hope that this helps,

Mick.

[K9-man]

04/15/2002 6:32 AM CDT

Here’s some info I got off another board by a trainer that utilizes the e-collar to the utmost:
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E-collar Myths

By Lou Castle

Those who are opposed to E-collar use often come up with many reasons as to why they don't want to use them. For the most part those reasons are as a result of poor use of them by trainers who either use them in the same way that they use a leash, or are locked into the way they were used long ago. I think a list of those myths that we can refer people to with a URL would make it easier to get the point across that these tools are great when used properly.

Note: I didn’t write all of this, I merely adapted it and then made lots of changes and additions. Someone else wrote it and I can’t remember who it was. As soon as I find out I’ll let you know who to give the credit to.

1. MYTH: You must have perfect timing or be an expert trainer to use an e-collar

FACT: No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “good timing.”
If you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training takes a little longer. If you have so–so timing training takes longer still. If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs or the wrong training takes effect. Anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an e-collar effectively. Even many who aren’t coordinated enough to give a correction can learn to use an e-collar effectively.

2. MYTH: e-collars are cruel and FRY the dog with electricity.

FACT: Modern e-collars have settings so low they can best be described as a tingle, not a shock. This allows a trainer to use low levels that are only uncomfortable (rather than painful) to the dog. This allows the trainer to help the dog become reliable, even under distracting conditions, with virtually no force.

3. MYTH: e-collars scramble the dog’s brain and do nerve damage.

FACT: Major veterinary universities have tested e-collars. No evidence of any such damage has ever been found.

4. MYTH: e-collars have a bad image.

FACT: In reality what have the worst image are methods of dog training which employ force. This means that millions of dogs are being trained entirely with cookies. Yet, most trainers believe that driven dogs will not be reliable under very distracting conditions if a correction has never been applied for ignoring a command.

People who have been training dogs for a long time may remember e-collars of twenty years ago. They only had one very high setting. So those people may indeed have a negative image in mind. However, today's equipment has many very low settings. Often, dog-owning members of the public become intrigued when they see the happy and well-behaved dogs trained with e-collars. Used properly an e-collar can help the dog achieve reliability without force.

5. MYTH: E-collars can accidentally "go off" even if you haven't touched the transmitter.

FACT: Some of the e-collars from many years ago actually did react to interference from radio signals. Since that time, all electronic equipment has been improved and refined.
Modern e-collars offer up to 50,000 random frequencies and do not suffer from accidental discharge.

6. MYTH: In a training group situation, it will be confusing for trainers to have some student’ dogs on e-collars, and others not.

FACT: E-collar policies vary. In a group situation, it may be best if all newer handlers in the beginning class are on the same page, using similar equipment approved by the club. This may help the instructor understand the reactions and needs of each dog, and assist those handlers.

However, knowledgeable advanced level trainers can use an e-collar in class without causing any confusion at all for instructors. In all likelihood, the class instructor may simply note that in the right hands, an e-collar dog is corrected less forcefully than a dog on a choke or pinch collar. The key is that the handler should be knowledgeable about his dog and equipment.

7. MYTH: Based upon seeing an e-collar on your dog and the fast results, beginners may rush out to buy collars and use them improperly.

FACT: Like any other piece of training equipment, such as a choke chain or pinch collar, an e-collar can be misused. Used properly, an e-collar can yield a happy dog that will be reliable under distracting conditions. Knowledgeable trainers recommend that beginners take lessons with trainers who are familiar with the e-collar, or, at the least, use one of the several videos recommended for this purpose.

8. MYTH: The e-collar will hurt or scare my dog.

FACT: With the modern methods of introducing the dog to the e-collar this doesn’t happen. Even people who have trained dogs for years should be open to giving new methods a fair evaluation. To do that, it is often best to observe someone who uses e-collars with modern methods.

You should not see anything forceful, harsh, painful or scary for the dog. In fact, most of the time, the demonstrating trainer may have to inform you when they have give the dog a correction, because even a trained eye may not notice.

9. MYTH: E-collars are for punishment training only.

FACT: Years ago when collars only had one setting, some trainers used them only to punish and stop behaviors such as chasing game, digging, or fighting. Today's collars have many low settings, some so low as to feel like a tingle. Some are so low that some people can’t feel them at all. The majority of learning with modern use of e-collars takes place during the negative reinforcement portion of the experience.

10. MYTH: Using electricity on a dog is just creepy. It reminds me of the electric chair and it will burn my dog's neck.

FACT: Remember that, like fire, electricity can be your friend or your enemy. The e-collar settings used by trainers today are even less irritating that a static cling shock you might get separating laundry from the drier.

Introduced correctly, the dog learns that the stimulation indicates a "wrong" behavior, and he learns to "turn off" the e-collar by substituting "correct" behavior. The dogs learn VERY quickly that it’s THEIR behavior that brings the discomfort.

Any reasonable e-collar trainer will show you that the e-collar will not hurt your dog. They can show you by applying the e-collar to their own arm and yours that force and pain are not involved. Modern e-collars use takes place at the discomfort level, not the pain level.

11. MYTH: If I use an e-collar to train my dog, I’ll have to use it all the time.

FACT: In this regard the e-collar is no different than any other type of training device. If you want perfect performance all the time with leash training then you’d better keep the leash on all the time. If you want perfect performance with an e-collar then you’d better keep it on all the time. But most of us are perfectly happy with performance that’s only 99% perfect. And so after you’re dog is responding reliably to the e-collar you can take it off until you notice a decline in performance. Then you’ll have to do some refresher training to bring the performance back up. But this is no different than with any other type of training.

12. MYTH: I want my dog to perform because he wants to, not because he afraid of getting a shock.

FACT: Many dogs will perform for this reason. However all dogs are subject to distractions. When something comes along that is a bigger distraction to him than pleasing you, he’ll do what he wants to do. If the distraction is big enough, something to eat, chasing an animal or bird, or playing with another dog, you may not be able to call him away from that distraction.

With modern uses of an e-collar the dogs aren’t afraid of getting a shock because the stimulation levels used are so low that they aren’t painful, they’re merely uncomfortable. They’re about on the level of discomfort of a fleabite. Dogs aren’t afraid of a fleabite; it just makes them scratch.

If you’ve seen a dog that’s working out of fear of getting a shock you haven’t seen “Modern e-collar training.”

13. MYTH: You can ruin a good dog with an e-collar.

FACT: You can ruin a good dog with any training collar. Just about any damage that you do with an e-collar can be fixed by a good trainer with an e-collar

14. MYTH: E-collar training will make my dog robotic.

FACT: E-collar training will make your training go faster and will give results that last longer. Modern methods of e-collar training will keep your dog happy as he works. As with any new training method (remember how your dog behaved the first couple of times you gave him a correction with a leash?) you will introduce some confusion. That will disappear in a few days as the dog learns how to shut off the stimulation.

15. MYTH: The e-collar will cause a relationship of fear between the handler and the K9.

FACT: The e-collar won’t do this any more than proper use of a leash and collar will create a relationship of fear. In fact, leashes are famous for establishing a relationship of conflict between dogs and handlers since, when you pop a correction on the dog he’s positive where this discomfort came from. Dogs have been known to “climb the leash” to bite the handler after getting sharp corrections. In e-collar training the leash is just present to gently guide the dog into position while the e-collar applies the pressure, there is no conflict between the K9 and the handler.

16. MYTH: E-collars should not be used on “soft” or “aggressive” dogs.

FACT: With proper e-collar training “soft” or “aggressive” dogs become more confident because they become responsible for their actions. Most “aggressive” dogs are really “defensive.” They’re afraid of being attacked and so they attack first. When their confidence increases they come to realize that they don’t have to bite first.

One of the more common myths about e-collars is "You have to have perfect timing or be an expert to use an e-collar." It just ain't so.

A situation that probably all of us have been through at one time or another comes to mind. You're teaching a dog the distance sit and he breaks it and goes to a down. You say, "Sit." but he doesn't comply. And so you walk the 50 yards to the dog, reach down to his tab, give him another sit command and correct him into a sit. Sound familiar??? Precise timing is necessary to train dog’s right??? If so, how did the dog learn from this experience? It took many seconds to walk the 50 yards and deliver the correction. How can that be??? I thought the correction had to be within (some say three seconds) of the command or it wasn't effective???

And yet dogs learn.

Timing is important in any style or method of dog training. But it’s not as vital as some would have you believe.

First of all NO ONE has perfect timing. Or if they do it's only for a very limited time. I've watched some of the best trainers in the world and they have perfect timing for, at best, ten or fifteen minutes. After that, their concentration ebbs, and they have only "very good timing."

I like to say that if you have perfect timing, training will go VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training will occur, but not as fast, and if you have horrible timing, no training will occur, or the wrong training will result.

But there's a vast gulf between even "OK timing" and "horrible timing."

I like to use snake proofing with an e-collar as an example because it shows very clearly how timing is related to training.

In snake proofing I first put the snake in a cardboard box so the dog can't see him. I want the dog to be proofed against the snake odor as well as the sight of him. I think that snake odor is less distracting than the sight of the snake, so it's easier to get the training started with that.

I measure the wind and it's effect so I know just about exactly when the dog will run into the snake scent cone.

As soon as he hits the scent and starts to investigate I hit the button on the e-collar. If my timing is perfect, as soon as the dog gets the scent, when his level of distraction is still very low, I hit the button. That means that the e-collar has the greatest effect on the dog.

If I'm successful and hit the button at the exact instant that the dog has gotten the scent of the snake, he'll make the association between the pain and the snake in one or two reps.

Note: I use the word pain here because I use very high levels of stim for this. A dog that gets bitten by a poisonous snake has a very good chance of dying. Since this is life or death I don't have a problem hurting a dog. I'd rather cause him a few seconds of pain than have him suffer snakebite.

But if my timing isn't perfect, let’s say the dog is able to move about 6' up the scent cone before I hit the button, he'll still make the association, but it might take 3 or 4 reps for him to get it. He might make another association, a butterfly flitting by, for example, because it took so long for me to hit the button. If he made another association it will take a few more corrections for him to make the correct one.

But if I have HORRIBLE timing here's what might occur. The dog will catch the scent, move along the scent cone, arrive at the snake, sniff the snake, (who can't bite because his mouth is taped shut), investigate until his curiosity is satisfied, and then walk away. If I stim him as he's walking away, he'll learn that moving away from a snake brings discomfort. Where's the "safe zone???" Next to the snake.

This is an example of the wrong training occurring.

I know a few people who have perfect timing some of the time, lots and lots of people who have good timing, more with OK timing but absolutely no one who has "horrible" timing. And so training will occur even though you don't have" Perfect" timing. It just takes a bit longer.

Is there anyone here who has "horrible" timing??? If so, please sell your dog and get some goldfish.

And as far as "ruining a dog" with an e-collar that I mentioned at the top of this post, anything that you can do with an e-collar to mess up a dog, can be fixed in less time with an e-collar.

And just one final off topic comment. Some people don’t like the term “proofing” as used here. They think it carries with it some degree of permanence and we all know there’s no such thing as permanence in dog training, only degrees of it. Such training as this, “poison proofing” and the like aren’t permanent. They all need occasional refreshers.

[UnclLou]

Since this is my first post to this Forum let me tell you a bit about myself. I was a Police Service Dog handler for about 5 ½ years and then the trainer for my department for the next 15 years until I was sidelined by a series of injuries. I still work for that agency which is a medium size Police Department surrounded by Los Angeles. Right now I’m off recovering from another surgery. It’s a good thing that I’m an Ecollar user, as I couldn’t handle a leash right now.

I must say that this is the calmest, most reasoned, nicest, discussion about Ecollars that I’ve ever seen except on Ecollar lists. K9–man (thank you sir) posted a list of myths that I have gathered from all over about Ecollars so that should answer a few questions that come up. But if not, please feel free to ask.

As he mentioned I use the Ecollar “to the utmost.” I work with Police Service Dogs, Search and Rescue dogs, sport dogs, pets and anything else that comes up. Most of my work involves clean–up of issues (I don’t like to say problems). I do seminars around the country for all disciplines of dog training.

I put Ecollars on puppies as soon as they are big enough to hold them off the ground and not tip over. I use them for just about EVERYTHING. I’ve seen some of the comments about “pain, magic, quick fixes, etc. I think the list of myths will cover most of them.

Very generally there are two types of Ecollar trainers. One kind uses the highest level of stim that the dog can tolerate. The other kind uses the lowest level of stim that the dog can just perceive. I’m in the second group. I think that to properly use an Ecollar you have to be prepared to show the dog how to make the stimulation stop. I use a leash, a buckle collar and gentle guidance for that. I use the tool for all phases of working with dogs; teaching, training and testing.

I believe that it’s essential for dogs that work difficult scent problems, the PSD's and SAR dogs that I mentioned, that the levels be kept low. Otherwise the dog’s attention will be directed back towards the handler, instead of on his job. There are a few who disagree with me but they have little or no experience with these dogs. And so I don’t place much credence in their opinions.

If anyone has any questions about me, or what I do, or how I use Ecollars, please let me know.

[Chiclid]

Ive used a shock collar on Rock when he was about 14 to 16 weeks old. He had a problem digging. Although he understood what no was and would stop it if I told him No... He eventually figured out that if mommy wasnt around he could get by with it. A Friend of mine who trained his hunting dogs. Loaned me his collar. I put it on Rock for several days without using it so he just thought it was another collar. And then one day we went in the yard.. This shock collar has 4 levels with 2 tones. I waited for him to start to dig. At the first indication, nose down, foot forward I hit the lowest button first. To check his pain level. Didnt even faze him, so I went to level 2. This one did the trick. He acted as if a bug had got on him. No cry No yelp, Just a confused look. Total distraction...... So once again, He started to dig, I hit level 2. Once again he stopped. He didnt know I was doing it.. He learned that if he put his paw forward to start to dig the little bug would get him. I also used the shock collar to train him not to jump on the fence. That darn little bug got him there too. The nice thing was, I was able to be inside the house and watch him through a window. He had no idea I was doing it. I used it for 1 month and have never had to go back to use it again. He learned by association. And just so that you know, I wouldnt have put it on Rock without putting it on myself first. I tested all levels on myself and although the 4th level feels like a Bee sting or a pin prick the 1st level for me was none exhistant, the 2nd level felt like a bug that flew down your shirt, an irratant, hard to describe and the 3rd was somewhere in between. I used the 3rd level only once on Rock and that was when he was jumping on the fence being over enthusiastic. He settle down real quick but again, he acted as if a bug or something got on him.

[Vicki]

Originally posted by UnclLou



I put Ecollars on puppies as soon as they are big enough to hold them off the ground and not tip over.

Obviously you have decided this is the only training method you care for. I would urge other members to try positive training methods with puppies, no need to start with the top of the correction heap when praise and hot dog pieces will get better results.

As for the "myths", I rather imagine an ecollar company authored the list, so take it for what it is worth.