Electronic Collars

[roscoe]

Originally posted by Vicki


Obviously you have decided this is the only training method you care for.

I'm going to insist responses to this topic address the pro's and con's of using a perticular training method.

[UnclLou]

Vicki wrote: Obviously you have decided this is the only training method you care for. I would urge other members to try positive training methods with puppies, no need to start with the top of the correction heap when praise and hot dog pieces will get better results.

LC: I don’t think I said that this is the "ONLY training method (I) care for." Before I discovered Ecollars I used plenty of other tools. But I’ve found that there is nothing that’s as fast, gives results that are as good, or is as easy to use as an Ecollar. It’s FAR from the “top of the correction heap” when used as I do. I’m gonna guess that you, as with many other people, haven’t seen Ecollars used as I use them. I’m sure you have visions of dog yelping in pain and being afraid to move because of the stimulation they may get for misbehavior. You won’t see that with me.

LC: As for "better results" with praise and hot dogs . . . I often use them as well, in combination with the Ecollar. Combine the two and you're golden!

LC: If you’ll recall I said that I worked with Police Service Dogs and Search and Rescue dogs. These guys do very difficult scent problems. If they were inhibited from moving they couldn’t do the work that’s expected of them. If their attention was focused back on the handler they couldn’t be the pure hunting animals that are needed. Even if the shift in focus was only 10%, that could mean a miss.

Vicki wrote: As for the "myths", I rather imagine an ecollar company authored the list, so take it for what it is worth.

LC: Vicki I authored the list of myths. I’m not an Ecollar company. I gathered them with input from many people online and in person. If you disagree with any of them I’d be happy to explain them. I have no problems with using lots of tools. I use whatever works best.

LC: If you come to one of my training sessions you’ll find that I always have a pocket full of treats. Please don’t assume that I’m doing the same thing that you may have seen other Ecollar trainers do. Where are you located? I travel around a bit. I’m gonna be in MI and WA state in May.

[roscoe]

Great job everyone!

Now that we have clarified the few minor disputes we need to move back to the topic at hand.

The e-collar discussion always brings out the best and worse, depending on which side of the table your sitting on. I have no doubt we can all control that emotion. This topic has the ability to become a keeper.

[UnclLou]

Perhaps it will help if I explain how I find the dog's working level of stimulation.

WARNING: this is pretty long.

You want to work the dog at the lowest level of stimulation that he can just perceive. Put the dog on a leash and take him outside. Let him settle down so he’s not fixated on anything or highly distracted by anything. With some dogs it take a few minutes for him settle down. If he’s sniffing the ground, he’s distracted. If he’s looking at something and his ears are standing up (for dogs whose ears do this) he’s distracted. When his ears relax and stick out to the side rather than straight up, he’s ready to check his level.

For the Dogtra Ecollar, set the dial on “0” and press the button. Hold it down and very slowly turn it up. After about 5–6 seconds release the button then press and hold it again. Continue to SLOWLY turn the dial up until you see some sign that the dog is feeling the stimulation. There are many such signs. One of the most common is that the dog will sit down and scratch as if a flea is biting him. Some signs are subtler than that though. They include an ear flick, a quick look at the ground directly in front of the dog, a pulling back as if a grasshopper landed on the dog, a rearing up, moving to another place, locking up (rigidity of the legs). Sometimes all that is noticeable is a furrowing of the dog’s brow.

The technique is just a little bit different for any other brand of Ecollar because of the different way that the stimulation level is set. For the TriTronics collars set it on the lowest level of stimulation available. Press the button and check for a result. For those Ecollars that have three buttons that give you a low for one button, medium for the other and high for both together, press the “low button.” If the dog doesn’t respond, go to the next level on the dial and press the “low button.” Use only the “low” button until you find the dog’s level. This allows you to use the medium and high buttons when the dog ignores you later in the training.

A dog may vocalize and rear up. There are two reasons that a dog will vocalize with an Ecollar stimulation. One is that he’s in pain. Since I’m using the continuous mode, if this is the reason that a dog is vocalizing, he’ll continue to vocalize as long as I hold down the button. If this is occurring YOU’RE TOO HIGH. Another reason that a dog may vocalize is from surprise. Think of yourself sitting in a theater watching a scary movie. Someone taps you on the shoulder and you jump and involuntarily make a noise. This is not from being hurt; it’s from being startled. I think that the first reason given for a dog to vocalize is unfair, especially at the teaching phase of using the Ecollar but the second reason is acceptable. The dog isn’t being hurt; he’s just being surprised.

One give–away that the dog is surprised is that he only vocalizes for an instant, even though continuous stimulation is being applied. If he was being hurt, he’d continue to vocalize as long as the button was being held down because it would continue to hurt. If you’re using the nick or tap mode and the dog vocalizes each time the button is pressed, YOU’RE TOO HIGH.

When the dog shows you that he just perceives the stimulation level, you’ve found his working level. This may change slightly up or down. Some dogs become used to that level and it will need to be shifted up a touch. Some dogs become sensitized to that level and it will need to be turned down.

You may find that the continuous stimulation button is too intense for your dog, even just a slight movement from the “off” position of the rheostat. It’s rare but it does happen. If your dog reacts very strongly, usually shown by constant vocalization and rearing up, you may have to go to the nick button to work him. This can be done but the communication isn’t as effective. AND you’ll have to keep pressing the button while others are just holding it down.

Your dog’s working level may change from day to day. You should verify that it hasn’t changed by checking it every time you take him out to work him. Start out just a bit lower than where you normally work him. Wait till he’s not distracted and press the button. You might find that today, he’s working at that lower level. If he makes no sign that he feels it; you can go back to his usual level. If he’s ignoring you completely, you might need to go a touch higher.

(C) COPYRIGHT 2002 Louis Castle

[WorkinDogz]

An e-collar is only as humane and effective as the person holding the remote device.

Are there people out there simply set on "lighting the dog up"? Sure there are.... Those people are the same ones that will *always* have untrained dogs.

Understanding K9 Behavior as well as when/how to use training equiptment from Gentle Leaders to e-collars is the responsiblity of the HUMAN. Dogs.... completely understand K9 Behavior.

Please remember; you can incorrectly use ANY piece of equiptment/method. That includes Gentle Leaders AND FOOD-REWARD-MOTIVATION-ONLY-METHODS including CLICKER TRAINING.

There are plenty of dogs out there being harmed (and continuing to stay UNTRAINED) on flat collars.....harnesses....Halti's.....Gentle Leaders.....slip chains.....prong collars and e-collars.

Proper application of training tools and method IMHO is far more important than "which" tool is taken out of the bag.

[Vicki]

I believe it is a "con" of ecollars to put an ecollar on a puppy. It should be an underpinning of ones training philosophy that no corrections are given until the puppy has learned the behavior. It is simply unfair to the puppy to be giving "corrections" while the puppy is learning. This is not just an ecollar issue; it would be unfair no matter how one administered the "correction".

A flat collar, a few treats and toys, and the puppy can learn very quickly. I can no doubt find a puppy training class or seminar that would show this very quickly, no matter what area of the country, as puppy training is a joy, or at least it should be.

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Vicki
A flat collar, a few treats and toys, and the puppy can learn very quickly. I can no doubt find a puppy training class or seminar that would show this very quickly, no matter what area of the country, as puppy training is a joy, or at least it should be.

And I don't disagree with the above at all. However; there are absolutely more than the above ways to achieve the same results (a happy, obedient dog that does not show evidence of pressure, stress or fear) using methods besides the the ONE you and I happen to use.

I don't even put my pups on lead to do their imprinting! That certainly does not imply that my dogs will have or DO HAVE a better attitude or enjoy obedience more than LC's pups.

Again.....it comes down to proper application of WHATEVER training tool is chosen.

[rottnelmo]

See, I knew I was going to open a can of worms here.

I just sat back for the last several postings to read and learn.

I want to clarify one thing though...Elmo is solid on his commands, I have been diligently working him on a prong and choke, alternating between the two of them. I need to be able to work on either the choke or the flat inorder in to show him in obedience. He just needs to be fine tuned...thats all.

I have taken two lessons now from a respected trainer of hunting dogs here in Wisconsin. He has also worked with Rotts, Pits, and other working breeds. Not just sporting breeds. I like the results that I have gotten from Elmo just by going to two lessons.

He tested Elmo's level on a Dogtra collar just as UnclLou describes, He is pretty much a wimp, so he is on one of the lowest level. I think the highest we got him to was 8 out of 160 possible.

I am not using the collar to fry up my dog or to cause damage, I am going to use it to fine tune my training.

Any way...the information you all have given me...K9Man, UnclLou, Mitch...has been wonderful. I am definately careful about my use of the collar, but you all have helped me to look at it from every angle.

Ps. I have the Dogtra 1200NC...I really like this collar...I have used Tritronics...but my choice is the Dogtra...and No, I am not being asked to say this by the companies.

[roscoe]

I've asked everyone twice not to address the members, and to keep your post on topic. It's time we move on.