nipping & biteing

[mario sepulveda]

My rott is a 5mt female 52 lbs and as of late she is getting more into nipping/ biteing me when she wants attention or when she gets involed in playing outside,I have constanly used the NO BITE command and also hold her mouth frimly shut or hold her by her scruff and I tell her to settle till she does , she will growl and bark and snap her jaws at me but will not bite after being scolded but after a couple of minutes or so she will nip with just her front teeth anywhere she can,like little sneak attacks,she does it in a play mode but I know its NOT to be tolerated under any means,like I stated this isnt all the time just seems like she gets wacky at certain times,and only does it to me and Im the one who she spends most of the time with ,besides my lab which she also nips and bites during play etc...She does GREAT in puppy classes with people and other dogs or when she meets strangers with or without dogs at a Flea Market etc,,,I feel its part of a play/wanting attention thing but shes can HURT especially when she nips unexpectedlly......Hope this is something with proper training she will grow out of.....Any other suggestion greatly apperciated Thanks........

[Gatsby]

Never tolerate her mouth on your for any reason. There is no excuse for this behavior, even if she doesn't seem to have any ill intent.

There are a number of ways to deal with nipping, but this is my method:

I carry a small bottle of bitter apple in my pocket. When I feel teeth, I take out the bottle, calmly open the dog's mouth and squirt it in there. (Don't squirt them in the face, it can irritate their eyes). It's important that you not be upset with her. Think of this as a natural consequence of her actions, like getting poked by thorns if you stick your nose in a rose bush. :)

I don't use "no bite" because there is never a time when it's okay to bite. Also, If dogs do this when they're all wound up playing, sometimes grabbing the muzzle and holding it closed just gets them more worked up because it's like you're teasing or rough-housing with them. It's hard to say because I don't know the exact situation, but holding her by the scruff until she settles down may actually be encouraging the behavior because she's getting your attention and touch, even if it's kind of negative.

[BarryMcD]

Mario:

1) If you say NO BITE, which you must do consistently EVERY TIME she bites or even starts to bite, do it correctly. First, do not raise your voice and yell it. Say it in a normal volume but in a low-toned voice in an ominous and distinct way. When I say this, I point my finger right at the dog's mouth--just inches away--as if daring it to bite again. Hold the finger still and say NO BITE with emphasis, slowly and seriously, but not with high volume. It may be just me, but the finger thing seemed to accellerate the NO BITE learning and compliance greatly. If it works, you will be able to say nothing and just point the finger at the dog's mouth and it will stop. You will have developed a visual cue.

2) Do not shake the dog by the scruff, whack it in the nose, hold its mouth shut, or pour bitter chemicals down its throat! Don't touch or hurt it in any way! First, this is not a necessary or humane way to deal with any behavior. If you think you need to hurt or upset or scare a dog to death to correct it, you must be reading training books written 50 years ago! Second, there is a theory that the more drastic response you make, the less likely it will work and the more likely the dog will repeat the behavior. (Ever raise a teenager!)

3) Some people swear by the "OUUUUCH!!!" technique, and I have had good success with it, and with combining and rotating it with the NO BITE command. When the pup bites, (and now the advice is exactly the opposite of my first suggestion--totally different technique and theory) scream as loud as you can "OUUCH!" or "OOOW!" Pull your hand away quickly like you've been hurt. Then walk away. Igonore the dog for a few minutes. Then start with a clean slate and return to your normal self. Repeat for each bite! People are opinionated about this one, but I have made it work several times with several pups, Rotts and other breeds.

4) The most humane and easiest and possibly, depending on your dog, the most effective, is totally ignoring the dog., AS soon as the dog bites, say NOTHING. No scolding, no action, no punishment. Just get up and leave. Go in another room and leave the dog behind. Wait no more than 5 minutes. Then clean slate. Leave your isolation and go on with life. Repeat as necessary. I should have placed this suggestion first because it is probably most likely to work. You see, your dog wants your attention. It needs you presence. When you disappear after it does something undesireable, you are depriving the dog or your presence. This is what's called a negative punishment--a punishment in which you don't do something to the dog, but deprive the dog of something it expects.

5) I wouldn't suggest a time-out for biting--the opposite of the last one (#4) where you put the dog in an isolated room for five minutes. That's because to do this you must give the dog a lot of contact, commands, and attention, so it defeats the whole purpose. Although it gets isolated for a few minutes, it also gets your immediate attention for a minute or two first! You should disappear, not remove the dog.

6) Finally, regarding time, any timeout or period of time that you disappear or ignore the dog should not be more than about 5 minutes. After that point, the dog has no idea why it is being punished. It is just mean and cruel to lock up a dog for 20 minutes or an hour! The impact of the negative punishment is felt in the first minutes. After that, the dog becomes more and more vague about what's happening and probably does not remember what it even did to deserve it!

I have raised 2 Rotts, and now have a 3 /12 month Rott pup. I have raised a dozen others because my wife and I routinely rescue dogs from shelters. We currently have five. I've studied asnd taken courses in NILIF, clicker training, and other obedience methods. Believe me, I don't care what the age, size, or breed, you get nowhere punishing a dog with any physical force or restraint, or by yelling NO. (The only yelling that I would use is in that one "OOOW!" technique because the idea is for the dog to be a bit shocked and think he hurt you. Believe me, he does not want to hurt you! That's why that method often works.)

One last comment to help pursuade you why these more peaceful methods tend to work. A typical and well-functioning Alpha dog does not keep the pack in order by biting, growling, and punishing ever other memeber. True Alpha dogs are not aggressive and scary, they are quiet, confident, and laid back. They use subtle signals to say, "I am the boss," or "Stop that," without having to usually resort to any major display of aggression. They are aloof and when they give their attention to another dog, it is a welcomed gift. When they withdraw their attention and ignore a dog in the pack, it is a terrible slight to that dog. So if you want to be perceived as the Alpha, the one in control, stop acting like someone in the middle of the pecking order. Those are always the most insecure and aggressive dogs in a pack.

Again, that "Ouch!" method may seem to defy this advice, but in that you walk away after being bitten, it does deprive the dog of your much wanted attention.

Lats advice: If you are not doing some type of regular training with your dog--an obedience class, or just working on sit, stay, etc. yourself, or teaching an agility activity like jumping...something that puts you in the role of teacher and rewarder and the dog in the role of student, you should do this. Don't work on biting in this training. Work on other things... Just the general practice of getting the dog to enjoy working with you and following commands will helkp all aspects of your relationship.

Hope something above is of help to you. I have given several methods because some will work better with one dog than another. I'd personally begin with suggestion 4 first, and give each method a chance for at least a week. If you see NO change in a week and you've been doing the method consistently, then try a different one.

Barry

[Leeloo]

Great post Barry,

But at what age should this technique work? I have an 8 week old puppy. Is she old enough to understand that she shouldn't nip while playing?

[wolf539]

Barry,

Thank you for an excellent post!

I have an 11 week old puppy at home (our second Rottie) and am working on correcting this type of behavior as we speak. I printed a copy of your post and am making it required reading for everyone in the family!

Best,
Steve

[Leader]

Great post Barry. Wish everyone would use humane training :(

I'd start with Barry's 3rd or 4th technique as soon as I brought a puppy home. In fact I did and they do work. I used them together but not at the same time.:D

Good muck, you puppy owners out there. Enjoy every minute you've got with those lovely furry balls. And train, train, train!

Soon they'll be lovely muscular atheletes:D

[Leader]

So sorry! That should read good Luck, puppy owners! :(

Apologies:D :( :D

[Trinitii]

My pup is also 5 months old and seems to be in the same stage. what I have learned here as well as class is to redirect her and it works great. If she is biting at my leg or arm I give her a command she knows. I do say oww first though to let her know the bite was bad but then redirect to make sure we don't get a second bite :) It seems to be working. Good luck!

Trinitii

[nmbr1mom57]

Barry you seem extremely knowledgable and your post was full of excellent ideas! I'm glad I read it. My pup is nearly 6 months old and is definitely in the playful nibble stage. I will certainly try some of your ideas. Thanks for the info!

[AB3]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the yelling ouch theory when the dog bites. It has been said the dog doesn't want to hurt you, and yelling ouch tells the dog you've been hurt, blah, blah, blah. While it may be true the dog doesn't intend to hurt you, but yelling ouch and ignoring the behavior just doesn't make sense to me. Ouch means no more to the dog than, "quit", "dummy", "pretty dog", "how was your day" etc.
Barry McD wrote...The most humane and easiest and possibly, depending on your dog, the most effective, is totally ignoring the dog., AS soon as the dog bites, say NOTHING. No scolding, no action, no punishment. Just get up and leave.
Now this is not an attack on Barry McD, but I want the best method for training my Rott. I have 3 children (8, 6, 3 yrs.) and don't want any incident where it's my family or the dog. The dog will lose every time. But with this breed, isn't the worst thing you can do is submit or "give up?" It's just a question. I do see you've given several techniques, I just don't agree with the "yell ouch and walk away" method. I believe if a dog dared to bite the Alpha dog, he/she would quickly be put in place and not by "yelping ouch" and walking away for 5 minutes. Just an opinion.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

Originally posted by AB3
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the yelling ouch theory when the dog bites. It has been said the dog doesn't want to hurt you, and yelling ouch tells the dog you've been hurt, blah, blah, blah. While it may be true the dog doesn't intend to hurt you, but yelling ouch and ignoring the behavior just doesn't make sense to me. Ouch means no more to the dog or "give up.


I believe if a dog dared to bite the Alpha dog, he/she would quickly be put in place and not by "yelping ouch" and walking away for 5 minutes. Just an opinion.

When I got Buddy, the yelping (not yelling) "ouch" technique worked wonders. It has to be "yelp", not just a shouting of ouch. He immediately stopped his biting/nipping. When you yelp ouch, it is definitely different than shouting other things. I don't think it matters if you yelp "ouch" or "quit" or "dummy" - it's all in the yelp.

Re the dog daring to bite the Alpha dog - in my experience, it depends. Soapie is alpha in our pack. Sometimes she will bark and nip the lower dogs for no reason - like Buddy will enter the room, and maybe look in her direction, and she'll go after him! I guess she does it to keep her dominant position firmly established with a minimum of effort. :D
But when they are playing, and Buddy accidentally (I think) gets too rough (Soapie has arthritis in one leg and sometimes Buddy will set it off), Soapie yelps and walks away. She doesn't "correct" him in any other way.


Not sure if this helps any, just my experience.