Clicker training...what are your thoughts.

[George Michael]

I have read about clicker training and wondered if any of you had success with this method. My new pup seems to be VERY smart, and so far she has responded really well to basic training. I was curious to know if clicker training had any benefits or long term advantages.

Thanks for any input you can give me.

Dave

[Lindsay and Lyn]

Hi George
There's plenty to read about clickers. I'd use one if I could find one. I snap my fingers instead. It gives an instant approval and the dog is not daft. Works a treat.
Good luck
Lindsay

[Judi W]

Well, I use a leash and collar, a toy and/or treats, a hand for patting in praise, often a dumbell and my very own personal voice to say "gooood" which my dog can easily distinguish from other people's voices. I can vary the pitch and frequency of my voice to stimulate or calm depending upon the work being done. Sort of old fashioned huh?

Clickers do not work in a class situation or where multiple dogs are being trained as they are going off all over the place and do not have a unique sound specific to the dog/handler team.

[TrishB]

I've heard of some wonderful results using this method. However, as has already been mentioned, it loses its effectiveness in group situations where everyone is clicking!

I like Lindsay's advice of using a snap of your fingers. Not everyone will be doing that, so it may alleviate some possible confusion.

The main thing is to find 'your' sound. Clickers are great, until you misplace them. :p Then what?? As you know from your readings, the 'click' must be at the instant of the action. 2 seconds later is too late. Use a particular sound that you can make, without aids, at any time. That way you'll always be able to praise your pup, on time!

[Storm]

Never used one never will. I have heard such stories but never seen any action. There IMO are many disciplines where they are of no use and sure people may argue the opposite. The dog seems to become stimulated by the "motion" Where in some instances YOU are the stimulation whether positive or negative, let the dog channel into you. I always see people ditching the clicker after a few sessions. Really enjoy the guys trying to curb dog aggression via click, click.;)

[Vicki]

Clicker training is wonderful, it fully engages the dog in the learning process. You certainly can have a class full of people clicking, the dogs have no trouble hearing "their" clicker. A clicker is just a way to mark behavior, clicker training is a whole way of training. In a nutshell, we get the behavior first, then tie a command to it. With puppies clicker training has to be seen to be believed. If there's a class in your area, do go see it, you'll be amazed.

http://www.clickertrain.com/journal.html

[Judi W]

It might be that this belongs in chitchat, but I couldn't resist. This poem was written by Ken Nagler, an obedience
judge and director of the Canine Training Association in MD.

Liquor Training

Now clicker training's quite the fad.
Results from some are not too bad.
The concept stemmed from Pavlov's hound
Responding to some special sound.

The dog would start to salivate
Before he got the food he ate.
The modern click does much the same.
Enhancing our dog-training game

By causing Fido's hopes to raise--
Anticipating treats or praise.
Sometimes you click to no avail,
And other methods also fail.

No matter how you plead or shout,
Sometimes the dog just won't put out
When asked to sit or heel or stay,
Thus giving you a rotten day.

It makes you feel quite like a fool,
And then you start to lose your cool.
But if your methods fail for you.
There's something else that you can do.

Try "liquor training", that's it's name,
To help you with your dog-sport game.
"How does this method work?" you ask
Well, first you get a little flask

Containing gin or other booze
Of any kind that you may choose.
Each time your dog decides to goof,
You take a sip of 80 proof.

It helps the handler to relax
And minimize the stress attacks.
When handler's mood is more at ease,
The dog may sometimes try to please,

Or, then again may still refuse
To mind his training P's and Q's.
But whether foul results or fair
You liquor train -- you just don't care.

[BarryMcD]

Wow, am I trying to bite my tongue!

First, Vicki is absolutely correct: Clicker Training can certainly be used in a class. Dogs have acute enough hearing to discern the difference in sound and also the exact location of each clicker. They may sound alike to you humans, but to a dog they are each like different musical notes! My wife and I intersperse clicks for four different dogs in quick succession and they know exactly who is clicking for what! The dogs are also not dimwits: They know which person is their owner, and they respond to that person;s clicks, not the stranger across the room. If you really believe it won't work in a class situation, you'd better contact some of the many clicker trainer who lead classes and tell them that!

Second misnomer. Cute poem, but Pavlov had nothing to do with clicker training. Pavlov used the concept of Conditioned Response. Clicker Training is based on B. F. Skinner's theories which are not the same. It is based on Positive Reinforcement and other more practical and realistic principles of behavior that have been used in psychology and education for decades. As a form of animal training, it began at SeaWorld and other aquatic parks to train large animals like dolphins and whales.

Judi W: Clickers work infinitely better than a leash and collar. In clicker training, (CT), you don't yank a dog around or limit its movements by putting pressure on one of its most vulnerable parts, its neck, and potentially choking it! In CT, the treaing can be completely off-leash and hands off. The dog does what IT feels like doing, and when that coincides with what you want it to do, you click and treat (C&T). Pretty soon you have a dog that is saying to itself, "Hey, I have control of this guy. I can make him reward me whenever I want." CT is by far the most humane and painless form of obedience training. It employs virtually no negative reinforcement or criticism.

Even the newest dog owner probably knows that it is absolutely useless to say "Bad Dog!" and shout at or hit a puppy that pees in the house. CT says it is absolutely useless (and unnecessarily cruel and destructive to obedience and your relationship with your dog in the long run) to punish, startle, or inflict any misery on a defenseless animal who is only doing what its genes tell it to do!

Storm wrote: "Really enjoy the guys trying to curb dog aggression via click, click."

Thanks for the complement. About a month ago I Clicker Trained our 80 lb. Rottweiler, who is very protective and does not usually react well to strange or new dogs, to accept a 6 week old puppy we had just gotten. First meeting: Old Cheyenne, the Rott, was barking and ready to bite the head of the pup. Within one week, we felt confident enough to leave both free in the house unsupervised. They were just playing out in the backyard this afternoon.

Your comment also shows a misunderstanding of how CT works. You train a behavior with the clicker. Then you attach a verbal cue: STAY or whatever. Then you do not use the clicker anymore for that behavior once it is learned. The clicker isn't a tranquilizing gun that you carry around and use in emergencies. An aggressive dog will attack another dog, and no click will stop it. (You, using conventional training and saying "AWAY" or "SIT" probably won't stop it either!) But that same aggressive dog, in a short period of time, can be clicked into behaving and not being so aggressive, so that the next time it meets its rival, it will have a good chance of walking by or responding to a simple call away.

Error Number 4: Snapping fingers, whistling, making duck calls, etc. can be used as a substitute for a clicker, but they do not work as well. One reason is that the duration of a click is so short. In the time you can say SIT, I can click about five times. (Maybe more if I practice.) Also, many trainers have found that some dogs do not like whistles because they are too loud and high pitched. To a dog, they sound about ten times louder than we hear them. The advantage of a clicker is its immediate, short duration signal.

For example, what is the point of the command Come? In conventional training, the dog executes a series of actions, over many seconds or even minutes, when you say COME. First it must get up if it is sitting. Then it must locate you. Then it must start walking--toward you--without stopping. Then it must get within a certain distance, stop, and face you and then stay there. Meanwhile, you probably have it on a lead and are pulling it toward you if it's not moving fast enough, while calling out encouraging or threatening words of motivation! Which of those 10 actions is Come?
What is the import point? The dog does not know.

But when I say Come, the second (split second) the dog arrives in front of me (which is the whole point of Come!) I click. When I tell it Sit, I click the second its butt hits the ground. Clicks can more precisely define and mark in time a short behavior or a particular step in a more complex behavior. They are also neutral and uniform in sound and volume. A click for a well-executed behavior cannot be harsh, critical, happy, disappointed, louder than normal, disgusted, or overly excited. Every click is a familiar, consistent sound that the animal gets used to. The voice is not as versitile, accurate, or uniform as a clicker.

TrishB: A finger snap is not as accurate, and I'd like to see how you would feel after you do a five or ten minute session a few times a day, day after day, once you have snapped your fingers three thousand times. About not having them handy: People who do serious clicker training purchase dozens and put them in their car, their jacket pocket, and in each room in the house. They cost about $2 a piece in small quantities, less in bulk. You can get five or six clicker for the cost of one good collar. But this still misses the point that I made in response to Storm's comments. Typically, a dog is taken aside in a quiet place and clicker trained for a short session a few times a day. Once the behavior is learned and done routinely, a verbal cue is substituted for the click, the rewards are given randomly and ultimately phased out, and the same old SIT command that you would use is used on the street or in real life to tell the dog to sit. You don't carry a clicker around all day and pull it out when it's time to sit!

I could repond to other statements and the hidden and incorrect assumptions behind them, but I will summarize by saying--and please do not be offended, I am not trying to be insulting, but just frank and informative--that the majority of the comments made against CT or about its limitations show an ignorance of how it is done, when and where it is and can be used, and what it is all about.

I am a high school English teacher and I like to tell the one about the kid who says, "I hate this book, it's boring." That's when I ask if the student read any of it. The answer, of course, is usually no.

I've trained and continue to train my four dogs with CT, and I am still amazed on a weekly basis at how fast certain behaviors are picked up, how long the memory for these behaviors is, and how much fun and enjoyment my dogs and I get out of every session. It is not like training, it is pure play!

I told someone else on another forum that I had clicker trained an 8-9 week old Rottie pup to Come, Sit, Sit Stay for as long as a minute, follow a target stick around the room with its nose, stop biting almost completely, and to look at me instantly every time I said its name. This all occurred in about one week. I was told that I was crazy and that the pup was just doing its thing and I was misinterpreting it. I was told that these behaviors would disappear as soon as the pup matured a bit and became more independent. I guess I should tell the pup since in the meanwhile it now is pretty good at UP (jump up on a bed or piece of furniture), and OFF (jump down or stop leaning on a person), and its Sit Stay has improved so that I can turn my back, walk away, and make all kinds of noise and the pup will still stay. I can also make it chase it's tale on command.

I'm not bragging here. I credit half of the amazing success to Clicker Training and the other half to a very smart pup. At this age, they absorb things like a sponge and exhibit new behaviors and skills daily! I won't take up anymore time telling about my other three dogs, or how I helped train my daughter's two, but again I think this strand began with a lot of misinformed opinions and statements. Try reading the book before you say its boring.

I'd be happy to instruct anyone on how to clicker train a particular behavior, or on the general principles behind it. Any questions are welcome, and I promise not to chastise you this time!

Barry

[SarasMom]

Clicker training works very well in a class setting. To say that the dog can't concentrate on the owner because of too many clickers around is silly. They pay attention to the owner and recognize their own click. The clicker is used to shape behaviors. The dog learns on its own, because the click marks the exact good behavior. Have you ever seen a clicker trained cat run the obstacle course? Or the clicker trained fish do tricks? Seeing is believing. CT works.

[WorkinDogz]

Click, Click, Click.......where's Flipper???

Sorry folks....Clicker training isn't the only (or best) form of motivational training around.....

Clicker training for aggressive behavior..... hmm.

Nah.

[George Michael]

Barry,

thank you for your in-depth response...very informative!! Thanks you all for giving me your input, I'm gonna go for it. I'm having a trainer come out for private instruction so I make sure I'm doing everything in the training book correctly.

[Storm]

Originally posted by BarryMcD
Dogs have acute enough hearing to discern the difference in sound and also the exact location of each clicker.

So what are you saying? The dog forms the required associations with that specific "click" not distinguishable by the human ear? So you got a boot full of clickers, each time you rock up for training you grab the first one you get and click away. Now there must according to your post, be a distinguishable difference in the click. The dog has already formed associations what now, does he just tune into another frequency?

Originally posted by BarryMcD
Second misnomer. Cute poem, but Pavlov had nothing to do with clicker training.

Irrespective of where it originated you form an association that is pleasant with the cue. This is no brain storm. But you are limited by a click and once the association is formed and the dog no longer feels the motivation, you get the finger then what? Do you want to tell me that CT forms a dog 100% motivated to please all the time. Dogs do have a brain, as well as a sense of stubbornness and any top trainer will tell you that once associations have been made and the dog has an understanding, things still have to be proofed. There are many ways to motivate a dog whether food, toy via drive in conjunction with you the handler and leash. This group of aids has proven itself over and over again. What happens when you forget your clicker at home and your dog decides to take off after another dog? Is it even useful in this situation? People make out as if it is some sort of magic wand. There are various elements of training let it be police work, rescue dogs, narcotics, explosives etc. whom all play vital roles in preserving lives etc. Then sports dogs, protection dogs, ring dogs etc. etc. How does one build drive for schutzhund with a clicker?

[i]The dog does what IT feels like doing, and when that coincides with what you want it to do........[/b]

What if it does not coincide, get yourself another dog? Compulsion and pressure have enabled dogs to take a turn for the better when applied knowingly by experienced trainers. I have seen dogs that would have crapped in there pants with the mere click of a clicker but have become dogs who can hold a bite with a drive and even take two stick blows.

[i] About a month ago I Clicker Trained our 80 lb. Rottweiler, who is very protective and does not usually react well to strange or new dogs, to accept a 6 week old puppy we had just gotten. First meeting: Old Cheyenne, the Rott, was barking and ready to bite the head of the pup. Within one week, we felt confident enough to leave both free in the house unsupervised. They were just playing out in the backyard this afternoon.[/b]

Well done what is so special about this, please explain exactly how this was done also we are talking about a 6 week puppy here, a little young to be out there already. Throw a two year old rottie, experiencing his prime into the equation........... Also any advice for fence fighting, food refusal, outs etc.

[i]You train a behavior with the clicker. Then you attach a verbal cue: STAY or whatever. An aggressive dog will attack another dog, and no click will stop it. (You, using conventional training and saying "AWAY" or "SIT" probably won't stop it either!) But that same aggressive dog, in a short period of time, can be clicked into behaving and not being so aggressive, so that the next time it meets its rival, it will have a good chance of walking by or responding to a simple call away.[/b]

How do you teach a behavior with no cue other than a click? The dog hears a click what now? What must I do? There must be some sort of prompt. Conventional training has once again proven itself a million time over. Using some sort of motivation to direct a dogs attention elsewhere is a form of distraction leaving a dog at its own will if the level of aggression exceeds the desire to obey or be motivated forget it. Your example of a recall doesn't make sense the dog still goes through all the motions and dogs are not always trained on compulsion alone. Dogs coming as a result of been motivated will fly across and almost knock you over.What if the dog diverts or you are walking of lead and he doesn't come, if a clicker guarantees a 100% recall with the dog been anywhere, I'll take a hundred. Tell me are you involved at all with sports or PP dogs? What is the association between clickers and drive. How have you found the uses of a clicker within this environment?

Once again barry I have seen all the things mentioned in your post done by alternative various methods. I just get so ticked off when all you hear is Clicker, click, click, clicker training is the only way to go. As posted the dog world is bigger then that.

[livertw]

I tried clicker training but found I needed three hands to do it. I substituted a quick oral click and a "good girl" and treat. Worked for me, but then I am not a professional trainer working with a show dog. One mouth click and Daisy comes and sits in front of me waiting to see what's up. We did it with leash and collar and treats. :p

[Vicki]

I'm always taken aback by the hostility toward clicker training; I am unaware of any clicker trainers kicking in doors and forcing their methods on others. :)

Dogs ability to focus on the trainer, and the clicker of the moment, is a simple fact, easily observable.

A training method that is both fun and effective has much to recommend it, and I've never seen a better method with puppies. It is work for the trainer, one of the hardest things is to learn to be quiet, and truly study and learn from the dog. Clicker training is very much an interactive process.

I think some people who are so appalled by clicker training of course haven't seen it, but beyond that imagine there is no proofing or corrections. That's quite a false picture. Clicker trained dogs even compete in dog sports, right next to the dogs trained with other methods.:)

Here are a few more links.

http://www.karenpryor.com/home/

http://www.clickandtreat.com/

[Storm]

Originally posted by Vicki
Dogs ability to focus on the trainer, and the clicker of the moment, is a simple fact, easily observable. A training method that is both fun and effective has much to recommend it, and I've never seen a better method with puppies. I think some people who are so appalled by clicker training of course haven't seen it, but beyond that imagine there is no proofing or corrections. That's quite a false picture. Clicker trained dogs even compete in dog sports, right next to the dogs trained with other methods.:)

I for one am not APPALLED by it! What ever blows your hair back. I have attended local seminars etc. and if I may speak for myself was not for me. I recieved exactly what I require from my dogs an alternative way! But then again in some peoples minds there is the "Clicker" way and the "Conventional" way. That's the mind set something along the lines of this new "Green peace movement"!

What is your experiences regarding clicker training and dog sports/ sports dogs and in what facets is it utilized? One person says the dog just walks next to you, no leash then another says it must be proofed, does this involve compulsion, however slight, it is still compulsion. I dunno