Clicker training...what are your thoughts.

[pride-and-joy]

Another "here here" on the....it's another great tool!

I personally love the clicker to develop and perfect parlor tricks and games.

I also use it to reward mark "no fail" confidence building warm up exercises such as spins, figure 8 through my legs, get on the place box, etc...type stuff before getting real serious with heeling and down/stays.

My male especially really gets his lights turned on when the clicker comes out. I really see him soliciting me and trying hard. It is a big morale builder.

However *big comma*....there ARE times when I need to MAKE him do something I've asked (that he KNOWS how to do) and the clicker is not the tool I use in that case.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by DogLover
First of all, I don't want my dog to do what I ask when he feels like it, I want it done when I ask. If you've ever shown your dog in obedience you'll understand.

DogLover,

you are misunderstanding the concept.... Clicker is not a tool used to enforce OB, it a tool used to teach...

once the lesson is learned you can use whatever methods you desire as enforcers (verbal/physical corrections, etc.)

the clicker is simply a way to engage your dog in the learning process...

[Simba]

Thanks for the tips on Biting Barry, I have begun leaving him immediately after he bites for a min or so and he gets upset and wines a bit. Now all I got to do is get the rest of the household to do the same with him. It seems consistency is the key to getting things through to him!

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Simba
It seems consistency is the key to getting things through to him!

ABSOLUTELY.

[BarryMcD]

DogLover quoted me in his last post:

> The dog does what IT feels like doing, and when
> that coincides with what you want it to do, you
> click and treat (C&T).

Then DogLover replied:

> First of all, I don't want my dog to do what I
> ask when he feels like it, I want it done when
> I ask.

The dog does not do what you ask "when he feels like it" in the field or in real life. He does what he feels like during a controlled training session. Once he is trained, he will of course do what you ask when you ask it.

If you look at a majority of research done in MODERN TIMES instead of following by rote the traditional methods of how to train a dog that were thought up fifty years ago when smacking a dog and rubbing its snout in urine was just one of the supposedly effective methods of housetraining--you will find that dogs trained in the way I describe-- where I as trainer wait for the dog to initiate the action on its own--have shown to respond to the command and remember the command better than traditional leash-trained dogs. This is probably because instead of imposing your will on the dog by "making it do what you want," you end up working with a dog who learns that what you want is what it prefers and want, too.

Also, realize that this waiting for the dog to show a certain behavior is only done for the first few training sessions. As soon as the dog makes the connection between the behavior and the CLICK & TREAT reward, it begins offering the behavior more and more often until within as little as three five-minute training sessions the dog is Sitting or whatever it was you wanted it to do by its choice and without the trainer having to wait at all.

As Mattweiser said in a previous post, you use this "waiting game" approach only in training, not in real life when commands are learned and obeyed. You are mixing up training with giving commands, but you are also misuderstanding the time frame and use of the "waiting" which is only used to start training a new behavior. Once you use the waiting technique the first few sessions, the dog will be executing the behavior routinely, so you will no longer be waiting.

Your criticism is analogous to saying to a leash trainer, "What good is pulling up on the leash to train the dog to sit if you have to do that every time you want the dog to sit?" Obviously, pulling up on the leash, or using a food lure or whatever to get an untrained dog to start learning what a behavior is has nothing to do with commanding that dog to execute the behavior once it has been learned. You don't pull a leash up every time you want a dog to sit for the rest of your life!

DogLover also quoted me as saying:

> Pretty soon you have a dog that is saying to
> itself, "Hey, I have control of this guy. I
> can make him reward me whenever I want."

PRECISELY! And that is why it works BETTER and FASTER and MORE HUMANELY than most other methods of training!!! That is what the DOG is thinking from its point of view, but in reality, from the trainer's point of view, what you see is a dog that is ANXIOUS and HAPPY to please you and obey your commands because it has never been forced, yanked, prodded, pulled, or pressured into doing the behavior. The only association the dog has with the finally established command (Sit, Come, Heel, or whatever) is a positive one. It wants to please!

DogLover end by saying: > Maybe it's just me, but isn't this like
> giving the dog your alpha position?

Absolutely not. YOU are the source of all good things, of treats, privileges, play, rewards, love, affection, and the dog learns that all comes from you and from pleasing you. The dog also learns--because clicker trainers refrain from giving ANY negative feedback or punishment--that you are not to be feared and nothing bad comes from you.

Did you know in "pack theory," that Alpha dogs are usually NOT the ones who go around harrassing the other dogs, growling and trying to make their position known and accepted. (Only exception is when new dogs meet for the first time, possibly.) The true characteristic of an Alpha is aloofness and calmness and confidence. So before you object and say that making the dog like you and view you positively without any punishment is bound to make the dog think it is the Alpha and not you because you are not demanding or assertive, here's the story called The King of the Castle, in shortened form.

1. Sally buys a dog which she loves and fawns over, but her husband Nick could care less about dogs and ignores it most of the time. Their son, Brad, is a monster and secretly whacks the dog around and forces it to do what he wants.

2. While Sally is constantly fussing over the dog, pampering it, petting it, attending to its every need, old lazy Nick sits in the reclining chair reading the newspaper and not paying the least attention.

3. If the dog approaches Nick, he just brushes it off or continues to ignore it so it will go away. Ocassionally, he might give the dog a quick petting to get rid of it.

4. If the dog gets near that devil-kid Brad, he dominates it by fighting with it, pulling its ears, and making it clear that no dog is going to take the attention away from him.

5. Now let's see who understands Pack Theory correctly. Who is the Alpha in this family?

The answer is clearly Nick! The dog is scared to death of rotten little Brad, it knows it can get anything it wants from its doting owner, Sally, but Nick is aloof and calm and doesn't ever let the dog dictate what he must do. Believe it or not, if Nick should call the dog and pet it twice, the dog would be in dog heaven because the obviously confident Alpha has condescended to give it a little attention. The dog knows from Nick's aloofness that Nick is clearly its superior.

The dogs that are aggressive or show dominating behavior the most in a pack are the dogs in the middle of the hierarchy because it is their position that is shuffled when a new member is introduced. The Alpha at one end is confident and does not need to take a lot of time to show it is boss. The Omega at the bottom end is happy in its polace and will hardly ever try to climb to a higher social cast. But the ones in the middle fuss over who is 2nd, 3rd, and so on.

The only flaw in the analogy is that in the story, aloofness is the quality that Nick exhibits the most, but for me and my relationship with my dogs, it's not so much aloofness (though the popular NILIF method would recommend aloofness and ignoring the dog at certain times, and clicker trainers do use ignoring a lot), but the calm, pleasant, confident behavior that I exhibit which makes me stand out as Alpha.

Back to who is the Alpha in clicker training: I obviously am because I shown no aggression, no force, nothing but confidence, and I take care of the dogs below me through the subtle relationship established through humane treatment and clicker training, just as a true Alpha dog will subtley control its inferiors with the raising of its ears, a quiet growl, or by simply standing tall.


BarryMcD

[rottnvegas]

Barrymcd Wrote: you will find that dogs trained in the way I describe-- where I as trainer wait for the dog to initiate the action on its own--have shown to respond to the command and remember the command better than traditional leash-trained dogs. This is probably because instead of imposing your will on the dog by "making it do what you want," you end up working with a dog who learns that what you want is what it prefers and want, too.

Rottnvegas: Please give examples of these dog's that remember better with clicker training. Please point out all of the schutzhand trained dogs that compete at national levels that have been trained using a clicker. I don't think you will find any at all. I don't think these dogs are "forgetting" their training. Please don't say "I train pets, not competition dogs" because the simple fact is traditional training brings out a much more responsive and sharp dog. If these top competitors dog's are doing so well, where do you think the clicker would come into play?

Barrymcd wrote: PRECISELY! And that is why it works BETTER and FASTER and MORE HUMANELY than most other methods of training!!! That is what the DOG is thinking from its point of view, but in reality, from the trainer's point of view, what you see is a dog that is ANXIOUS and HAPPY to please you and obey your commands because it has never been forced, yanked, prodded, pulled, or pressured into doing the behavior.

Rottnvegas: You don't think dogs that go through a proofing and correction phase are still happy to please their handler??? PALLEESE
It is clear their is a lack of understanding about the way dog's learn here. The motivational phase is where the dog learns the behavior. The correction phase is where the dog learns that if it doesn't perform when asked it gets popped with a correction. You think my 105 pound rott resents me for correcting his hard, muscular, and thick neck with a prong collar? Well, I'm looking at him right now and I don't see any dissent in his eyes.

I would like to see truly clicker trained dogs (no corrections) work under severe distraction i.e. in the middle of a dog park or around a bitch in season. I will show you my dog any time under these circumstances. It seems the clicker crowd thinks a 1 or 2 minute sit-stay is something special.

If you think the clicker is the best thing since sliced bread than I would say use it. Use it in the motivational and teaching phase of training. Just don't forget that dogs need a correction phase to be truly reliable under distraction. Don't have the attitude that leash corrections are inhumane. THEY ARE NOT....this attitude comes from green peace fanatics that think you shouldn't eat meat but at the same time have a big leather jacket on...LOL

[Vicki]

Each person must make his or her own decisions as to what training methods they will use. Those who find clicker training an incredulous method might want to visit a clicker training class, just to see for themselves what a fun way of learning it can be, both for the dog and the owner. You could also observe clicker trainers working a dog with distractions, and again see for yourself that a clicker trained dog can in fact be a well trained, reliable dog.

As for other positive training methods, and why a trainer who was quite successful using other methods might make the move to positive based training, I recommend Sheila Booth's book, Purely Positive Training.

[Gatsby]

Clicker training works. So do lots of other training methods. In my experience, what works with a dog has to do with both the dog and the owner. Different dogs respond differently to each training method and different owners have different capabilities and backgrounds. You have to recommend something that works for both. For many people, clicker training is perfect for their situation. For others, it doesn't work. I get tired of trainers promoting only one method and rejecting all others. To me that's like saying there is only one method of raising children. Any parent of multiple children will tell you that even in their own families they had to work with each child a little differently.

As for seeing clicker training work, you only need to do a little bit of research to find examples. Here in Seattle, there is a police officer (I think his name is Steve White) who is pretty famous for teaching his K-9 patrol dogs using clicker training. He has to rely on those dogs to work with him in a crisis, so if clicker training didn't work, he sure as heck wouldn't use it! And since he started, quite a few K-9 units have used the same methods. Clicker training is also used to teach service dogs. Again, if it didn't work, it would be obvious. People who teach animals for performing in movies often use clicker training, among other methods, particularly with cats.

I think that trainers should have experience with as wide a variety of methods as possible and that includes clicker training.

[Gatsby]

Here is a link to Steve White's web site. He teaches classes now I guess. I didn't know that. He sells videotapes, so if you are honestly interested in seeing if clicker training works, I'd suggest buying one.

http://www.puppyworks.com/events/white/sw0102nc.html


This is a little of his background:
As a police officer, Steve was trainer for one the largest police K-9 units in Washington State. With K-9 assignments occupying much of his 25 years in law enforcement, he handled and trained patrol and narcotics dogs for military, county, and city law enforcement agencies. Accredited as a Master Trainer in 1993 by the Washington State Police Canine Association. Steve is an instructor for the K9 Academy for Law Enforcement, and has instructed at police K-9 seminars across the U.S.. He has been recognized as an expert witness by Washington courts in police K-9 and dog behavior matters.

Also, here is an article on using the clicker to teach a schutzhund retrieve:

http://www.geocities.com/jetflair/retrievearticle.html

And, for your Schutzhund enthusiasts out there who assume motivational training for competition could never work, there's a book on it:

Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive by Dildei and Booth. The original book on motivational Schutzhund training, it is an excellent guide to one type of motivational training and well worth reading.

[WorkinDogz]

Originally posted by Gatsby
And, for your Schutzhund enthusiasts out there who assume motivational training for competition could never work, there's a book on it:

Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive by Dildei and Booth. The original book on motivational Schutzhund training, it is an excellent guide to one type of motivational training and well worth reading.

The above is basically clicker training without the clicker! :) It does "work".....and I have several HOT/Multi-HIT/Multi-SchH3's to back it up too :)

The PROBLEM I see with the entire arguement is those who think that when using motivation to imprint (and I'm not sure why you would use anything BUT motivation to condition responses) comes in the PROOFING phase.

I WILL apply corrections for disobediences in the proofing phase.....whereas; the C/T trainers tend to be the ones blasting trainers who DO choose to proof our dogs with compulsion.

Again.....it comes down to *balance*. You have the compulsion-based community calling motivational methods "bribary" and you have the motivation-only subscribers screaming "abuse" when a dog receives a correction.

Radicals on BOTH sides..... Find the happy medium and go from there.

[Gatsby]

I agree that proper leash corrections are not abuse; I use them myself. I just wouldn't rule out that clicker (or other motivational) methods can be used to train dogs to work reliably around distractions. We use corrections with dogs because it works, it works quickly, and because we can.

But there are many animal trainers out there working with animals that you can't correct as easily (for example, marine animals, birds, reptiles, cats) and requiring them to work in highly distracting environments, like movie sets. I think motivational training methods take longer, but can work to produce animals who perform reliably in a variety of situations.

I'm still researching the limits of clicker training for myself. I'd love to be able to train previously-abused dogs without having to give leash corrections. We see a lot of dogs at the local shelter who have to have ingrown collars surgically removed. I'm hoping that clicker training might be a good alternative method for these dogs.

That said, I agree many c/t people are "rabid." I think that often stems from having never used any other training methods. I hate it when people look at me like I'm a monster when I give my dog a leash correction in public.

Like Working Dogz said, balance is the key. Knowing as many different methods as possible makes for the best trainers.