Clicker training...what are your thoughts.

[Judi W]

Humm, sorry I tried to add a bit of levity into the thread.

I have never before been accused of advocating training a dog by "yanking it around". That assumes only two choices, clicker or yanking. False logic under any system. The leash law is in place in most communities and we train in public parks. At the training club, dogs are worked on leash until the reach a certain level of proficency, but training by "yanking" went by the board long ago. Otherwise, we wouldn't need to make sure our training clothes needed so many pockets. However, those who are opposed to making their dogs do anything and prefer to wait and hope the dog offers the desired behavior do fair better in private training and that is a fine idea for them.

Thank you for the lesson.

[Simba]

Barry,
We have just begun our pup in clicker training( 2 weeks now) and it is working very well. He gets all excited when the clicker comes out for his training session. I have a question though. You said you use the clicker to stop play biting. Can you explain how this is done? We try everything and he is still play nipping.
Thanks.

[Mattweiser]

Simba,

I am not answering for Barry, but here is my opinion:

you cannot use the clicker to stop any type of behavior... what you can use it for, is to teach alternate behavior....

example: when the dog stops nipping, click and treat (C&T)
after a few of these sessions, add a word like "stop" (not relevant what the word is)... insert the word as you are inbetween C&T.... w/in a few sessions the word should prompt the dog to stop bitting, as it will be looking for the treat... C&T..

make sense?

so the theory that follows.... the clicker taught nothing, stopped nothing, but it allows you to teach controlling behavior rapidly, and easily ;)

[Muckdogs]

Said it before, and I'll say it again. There are sooooo many ways to effectively train. The real key is to find what works for that particular dog and handler and commit to it. Here is a perfect example-> A lady in our Schutzhund club, bless her heart, is just not a compulsion type of trainer, which is what her dog really needs.. Her prong and other physical corrections are TOTALLY useless because she is so soft natured and she has a very hard and stubborn dog that has a very high tolerance for virtually any type of correction. it ends up looking like a toddler trying to correct a professional wrestler. The proof was at our last trial, when the darn dog forgot that the handler was even on the field, did its own thing until it got promptly dismissed from the field. So, IMO, she has to find another way to do the job, or start going to the gym :D :D :D

If clicker training is your thing, or if collar/prong training is your thing and works, more power to you, as long as there is fairness and no cruelty attached and you are doing something positive with your dog.

I personally have no use for your type of clicker training, click, click, click. I use my own -> Dogtra 1200 NCP, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz.

[Mattweiser]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
I personally have no use for your type of clicker training, click, click, click. I use my own -> Dogtra 1200 NCP, bzzz, bzzz, bzzz.

Awe come on Muck... when I am out doing real training, my boy has on:

pinch w/tab
fursaver (for grabing!)
e-collar

I have on:

transmitter
clicker
food
leash in hand
did I mention food? ;)

there are so many angles to good training....

[Muckdogs]

Is that all ?


What happened to the harness, long line, short line, 3 foot line, prong, working vest, hoses, kong, tennis balls, tugs and traffic handle???

[Mattweiser]

LOL...

I was just talking about going for a walk.... I didn't mean OB practice!! :D :p

[Sansano]

To answer the posters question..I think Clicker training is a wonderful positive approach to training that works well for many many people. The clicker really help newbies with thier timing and has been proven to work by the thousands who have titled thier dogs with the aid of one. A previous poster went through all the myths quite well and I won't go over them again.
That being said...it is only a tool. There are many out there and they each have thier place. I really get sick of those who deride the clicker as a fad. That is pure ignornance..it has proven itself many times over. I also get tired of those who think it is ' the only way' and that every dog can be trained with it. Hogwash. Try using the clicker when your dog is fence fighting with another.Good luck. .
Also, remember..every dog(and breed) is different!!! I have a 4 year old submissive female who can't take a loud verbal correction let alone a physical one without shutting down. She is incredibly eager to please and I have done wonderfully with the clicker. I aslo have a 15 month old intact male who would run roughshod over you if the clicker was the only tool you are using. A previous poster talked about all the different tools they use when theytrain and to me thats someone who 'gets it". So many great tools out there to use. Our dogs are better for it when we use whats there.

[Muckdogs]

Here Here Mike, that's what I'm talking about. Those that approach training with a closed mind are destined to fail or commit caninicide, one or the other.

[BarryMcD]

Simba wrote:

"We have just begun our pup in clicker training (2 weeks now) and it is working very well. He gets all excited when the clicker comes out for his training session. I have a question though. You said you use the clicker to stop play biting. Can you explain how this is done? We try everything and he is still play nipping."

Simba, a few things to try, not all directly clicker related, but combining several methods often works well.

1) This one uses a principle of clicker training, but no clicker. Use it for biting actual human skin, not for biting clothing. Teaching not to bite human skin, especially in a large breed, is the most important concern. Pups will be very hard to dissuade from biting cloth, so this is best left till later and for now just try to avoid it the best you can. If the pup sinks its teeth into your PJ's, just gently open its mouth and take the clothe out. Keep in mind that young pups have very tiny needle sharp teeth, and they often cannot disengage them from a piece of clothe at will. So once you open the mouth, it's not the pup's fault if the cloth remains stuck on its top teeth. Just gently help the pup get it out of its mouth.

A) When the pup first bites, say "No Bite" in a firm but not loud voice. Using a low pitch may help, though. (You are not trying to startle or punish the pup.) Immediately put the pup down and ignore it completely for 3-5 minutes. If it approaches to climb on you, get up and walk away. You have no interest in this pup whatsoever. You do not like being bitten by a pup.

B) After a few minutes, forgive and forget all, and starting with a clean slate, carry on as usual. Do whatever you were doing before, play with the pup, whatever. If the pup bites human skin again, repeat step A. Be prepared to repeat many times the first few days. Don't get discouraged and say, "This isn't working." If it will work for your pup, you will go days with little result but then all of a sudden, it will click and the pup will be biting about 50% less than before. Keep working on it.

Biting behavior in a pup is very instinctual. It can be a hard habit to break, which is why you want to limit it to human skin.

C) Variation of the above method:

Procede in the same way, but as soon as you are mouthed or nipped, get up, ignore as usual, but toss or leave a chew toy with the pup so it has something to bite that is OK.

This variation is a little controversial because it can appear to the pup that it is being rewarded for biting you. Try to make the toy appear as if by magic and don't make it obvious that you are giving it to the pup. This may help.

D) Seriously: Buy about fifty dollars worth of every type of chew toy known to man. Then toss them all around the area were the pup hangs out. On the floor, on the chairs, everywhere.

Most pups prefer cloth and hard bone to vinyl and plastic, although there are exceptions, so if in doubt, get lots of stuffed toys (as small as appropriate for your pup's size), and lots of real bones, Nylabones, Greenies, etc. An old sweater makes a great chew toy! Or any rag or wash clothe.
Buying some marrow bones and boiling them creates a meaty bone treat and gives you a beef stock that can be poured on dry food for a special dinner! The very thin white undyed unsmoked wrapped rawhide sticks are very good, too. (They look like rolled cigarettes.) Pups need a combination of soft and hard bite objects. Stuffed toys that squeek or make a noise are favorites, too.

You want this baby to be biting all day long on owner approved bite toys and bones. nd you want one within arms reach so you can isntantly plug it into her mouth if she looks like she want to bite you, or after she has bitten you. Showing her what she can bite is more important than showing her what she can't bite! That's because it is positive reinforcement. If the pup is getting too many treats, use some bite toys to stick in her mouth instead of food on occasion.

E) Official clicker training method:

1. Pup bites, say "No Bite" and walk away and ignore pup.

2. Pup is with you and not biting, click and treat.

3. A few minutes later, still with you and no mouthing, click and treat.

4. Repeat as often as possible.

Note: The clicker training philosophy is not to use punishment or negative reinforcement. Thus the ignoring technique is used often when iundesireable behavior occurs. Understand I don't mean ignore the biting and let it go on! I mean stop the biting and leave a lonely pup alone, persona non grata, for a few minutes. Message: You bite, I don't play or stay! (Of course, ignoring is in a sense a type of punishment or negative reinforcer, but it is a tacit one. It involves doing nothing instad of doing something.)

F) The "Nature" Method: Works well though it must be done carefully and should be abandoned if no results are seen in a week at the most.

1. Pup bites. Say "No Bite!" in a firm low voice. GENTLY whack the pup on the side of its face or top of its nose with a couple fingers. The idea is to not inflict and pain or injury, but to startle and interrupt the biting. Pup bites again a few seconds later, whack! This is supposed to simulate the response the pup would get from other dogs or from its mom. You can alternately use a push away: place hand on side of pups muzzle and shove it away from you---GENTLY. Like "Get out of here!"

2. In a single biting incident, you may need to whack or push away five, ten, fifteen times at first. This one makes you feel a little guilty! But as long as you are gentle it can be affective. Don't ever let anger or any real strength come into play!

G) Mix the above methods. Sometimes walk away and ignore. Other times, "No Bite!" and whack!

H) Be consistent. Do not EVER let the pup bite or mouth anyone's skin! Never! You must object in one of the above ways every time! No exceptions.

I) Which ever method seems to be working, add E. The Official Clicker Training Method to it. Reward for not biting every chance you get. Reward especially if the pup was about to bite but didn't or is in a position in which it usually used to bite you but doesn't.

J) Finger Cue: If you can get the pup to cut down the biting quite a bit, start pointing your index finger at its mouth from a couple inches away when it seems about to bite, or lightly mouths. Sort of the way you would wave that finger at a person while you were yelling at them or scolding. Say "No Bite" while waving that finger at the pup's face.
I integrated the finger into the clicker method and the ignore method, and after about two weeks, the mere waving of the finger made the then 11 week old pup hault its attempt to bite. You have to be observant and if you can catch the start of the attack before the bite occurs, that is great. Use just a "No Bite" scolding, or that along with the finger. You can rely on a lesser reaction (just the words or finger) if you catch the action before it happens. If the pup actually gets ahold of you, you need to use one of the more dramatic methods. The pup will catch on that it is better to think about biting, and maybe even try, than to actually bite. That's a step forward.

K. The World Famous OUCH! Method:

1) Pup bites.
2) You scream OUCH! loud and high pitched (unlike other vocal responses above.) Really yell it out suddenly as if you are really hurt. OUCH!!!!!
3) Pull hand away. Forget the whole thing. It never happened.
4) Another bite? OUCH!!! Damn that hurt! Do not scream it AT the pup. Act like the pup isn't there and you don't know what just jabbed you! OUCH!
(THis one can have some amuzing results. Sometimes the look on the pup's face is precious! "Yikes, what was that!" The pup will be tahen aback! Again, though, we are not trying to scare or hurt, we want to startle and make an unpleasant loud high pitched sound that pup won't like. (Ever hear a couple littermates squeel when one nips the other!)
5) If you want to use only one method, try this one. More than any other, it seems to get pretty fast results. But do reward when good, too!

A COUPLE OTHER SUGGESTIONS:

--> Avoid placing your hands in front of the pup's face. Pups also will often go for you when you try to pet their head or backs. If this occurs, don't pet these areas. Work on giving the pup as few chances to bite as you can.

--> When you offer the pup a chew toy (which you should do often when you see it with an empty mouth) say "Good Bite," in the sweetest most loving and appreciative tone you can. "Good bite. Good girl!" As she chews her rawhide or whatever. Anothe rverbal positive rinforcer.

--> Feed dry kibble at most meals. Do not moisten or mix with canned wet food. Eating a crunchy kible meal will get a lot of "bite" out of thepup's system, and will also keep her teeth clean.


That ought to give you a good selection of techniques and ideas. Mix and match and see what works with your pup. One maybe a total flop, another a Godsend!

Keep in mind this will not be an absolute or permanent gain if you get her to stop biting. The biting will reemerge from time to time, at different ages, as teeth come in, etc. When it does, just start all over, but the training should kick in much faster during these later recurrences.

When skin is clearly understood to be off limits, start on clothing that is being worn. Objects like shoes and scarves don't necessarily need to be trsined because it's your fault if you leave them where the dog can get them!

If you get to furniture biting, which often will come around six months, get bitter apple spray or one of those products and take one hour each week to spray the legs of chairs, wood tables, and anything the pup can reach or shows interest in. Use the spray in combination with the same "No Bite" techniques used for skin.

Another furniture protector when you are home: Squirt bottle of cold water. If the pup dares to dig teeth into furniture while you are oresent, squirt her! (Well, my Rottie pup at eight months or so--we ried squirting her once or twice for something or toher ans she didn't flinch or bat an eyelash. She loved it!)



Good luck. Let me know in a few weeks how things are going.

[Muckdogs]

Barry,



Holy Schnikes, sounds like you know something about CT. Hey, if it works and feels good, more power to ya'.

[Sansano]

Originally posted by Muckdogs
Here Here Mike, that's what I'm talking about. Those that approach training with a closed mind are destined to fail or commit caninicide, one or the other.

Caninicide! Now that a new one I have never heard. LOL :D

[Roscoe's dad]

With a word like that you should think about running for president!;)

[DogLover]

Originally posted by BarryMcD

The dog does what IT feels like doing, and when that coincides with what you want it to do, you click and treat (C&T).

First of all, I don't want my dog to do what I ask when he feels like it, I want it done when I ask. If you've ever shown your dog in obedience you'll understand.

Originally posted by BarryMcD

Pretty soon you have a dog that is saying to itself, "Hey, I have control of this guy. I can make him reward me whenever I want."

Maybe it's just me, but isn't this like giving the dog your alpha position?

[Vicki]

I recommend you look at some of the clicker sites previously given in this thread to gain an understanding of how clicker training works. Since you seem to be interested in clicker training for obedience, I would suggest Morgan Spector's book, Clicker Training for Obedience.