only does "DOWN" with treats

[MyRottie]

My 6month old pup is going very well with the sit and stay but we are having a bit more trouble with the down. She is fine and will willingly go into a down for a treat but if I do not have one in my hand she will not do it at all. I mostly give her treats for this but am trying to give her them less often, maybe every second or third down.At this age should I be using treats every time we attempt this exercise? is it a case of she is still unclear what I am asking of her or is she being too clever?

[Judy Chrusch]

Hi MyRottie, 6 months is a bit young to get that command down completely and training with treats is always a good idea at that age:D. Continue to use the treats and practice the command a couple times a day for short periods of time. At this age I would use treats ALL the time for now. They are very food motivated and will do well with it :D. You will be training for the next 3 years or so, so don't rush it, time and patience is the key. My 16 month old male still gets treats for training, not near as often but still gets rewarded for good behavior, nothing at all wrong with it. The DOWN command and the RECALL are probably your most difficult commands not to mention the DOWN being a very summisive postition ;). As time goes on when you think she has all the commands down she'll be a brat and decide she doesn't want to listen anymore or do the commands. It's not uncommon, that's why it takes a loooong time before we can say they're trained. So hang in their, take your time and enjoy the different stages they go through.

Judy

[WorkinDogz]

WOOOOOOOHOOOOOO Judy!!!!!!! :D :D

Everything SHE said!!!!

(Be consistant! Lots of time to take the food motivation away!)

[angellove]

I have same problem with 2yo bitch, refuses to follow command unless treat is there, she knows when I am fooling her!

[Judy Chrusch]

WD you're too cute, wow, you agreed with what I said, cooool, we agree at last,LOL:D :D. All kidding aside, you know I agree with most of what you say,LOL and really respect EVERYTHING you say! Anyone who takes your advice can't go wrong, you and JudiW. are the BOMB!!!! Sorry not the best choice of words their .

As far as the treats I say use them as long as you need too, no big deal IMO, sure beats getting frustrated and taking it out on the dog, as some do.

angellove, your girl is still young, continue to use treats but if you can every other time or every two times. I'm bad some times, I put my fingers a certain way where Czar thinks I ALWAYS have something for him but he doesn't always get it, my point is they don't know when you have one and when you don't so eventually they'll listen each time, maybe hoping to get a treat:D. Just make sure your treat is a nutritious one and not junk and for your real special training, have that real special treat :D. Get to know your dog and what works for you :D.

[angellove]

Thanks Judy,
Guess I will have to be smarter than her;) , i will give it a try.

I give her gravybones snapped in half as a treat, she likes ALL food, so I have to be careful she doesn't get overweight.:D

[WorkinDogz]

Might want to consider switching rewards, angellove.

A reward is something small and immediate. It really shouldn't take them "time" to eat it.

I use fat-free Turkey franks cut into nickle size pieces and then cut in half.

It's not the size of the reward that counts most; but rather consistancy of the reward in the program.

Depending how long you've been imprinting the down command; it might be wise to start introducing corrections into your obedience.

However; I caution against doing this unless you know how to give an appropriate correction. If you're unsure; then please consider taking an Obedience course to learn the technique.

[TrishB]

There's also a half step that you may have overlooked. Before you ask for a command without a treat at all, you need to ask for it with the treat and just not give her one. She needs to realize that although you may *have* a treat, she isn't necessarily going to get it every time. She may have to work for it 2 or 3 times before actually receiving.

Once she's doing that solidly, then you'll be able to ask for a command without any treat at all in your hand. This interim step may help.

But as others have said (and they're all right!) she's still quite young - you've got plenty of time!

Enjoy! :)

[Trinitii]

Wow! great thread. My last rottie was trained with food and it seemed as though he didn't really care about us just food so this time I have been trying to do it without food and just toys or well just me praising hehe. I have to admit training with that treat does wonders. Thanks for the tips on how to move them from only doing things with treats.

Another question I have is I know our trainor uses hotdog or franks as was mentioned but the vets say to not give human food. However my trainor uses the hotdog but never ever gives it to her. She just gives her a lick. So the question is are the hotdogs really ok to give?

Trinitii

[TrishB]

Like WorkinDogs said - it should be something small that doesn't take time to eat. It's not a meal, but just a little splash of taste to motivate them. If you're giving them large treats, you'll also have to adjust their diets as large treats over the course of a day can equal an entire meal!

The problem with hotdogs is a that a lot of them are loaded with salt. If it's bad for you, it's probably bad for your dog! ;) But they are highly effective! So just use small bits, and use in moderation.

One thing you can try is dry Cherrios. Just the plain ones. They're small enough that they just give them a splash of taste and they're low in sugar, salt and fat! ;) The other advantage is that a box will last and last!! So it saves $money$ too! Cleaner for your hands and pockets too and better on hot summer days! :D

[MyRottie]

OK keeps the treats up then..thanks:)
TrishB, the idea of having the treat in my hand and not giving it to her everytime is a great idea too !

[BarryMcD]

MyRottie writes:

"She is fine and will willingly go into a down for a treat but if I do not have one in my hand she will not do it at all. I mostly give her treats for this but am trying to give her them less often..."

I hate to be the dissenting vote on this. It is true that you have a long-term process to fully train the behavior, but I do not agree with the crowd who seem to say, "Yes, feed her treat after treat, and don't worry yet about withdrawing the treats."

I think your instinct to begin eliminating some of the rewards is a good one. If you give any dog a food treat 100% of the time, for weeks, months, years... the dog will learn to pay attention and focus on the treat, and not on you. Your commands will not invoke loyal obedience, but an increasing demand for the food treat. Eventually, if you don't have a treat and the dog knows it, it won't even bother to obey.

The usual first step is what you tried to do: You tried giving the command, and even faking the hand movement (visual cue) without the food. You found it doesn't work. This could be because the pup does not give a darn about your command or the visual hand motions, but only about the food. It has already been "spoiled."

Since you had trouble getting the pup to perform the behavior without the treat in your hand, I would not give up and just keep treating. Clearly the dog is then dominating the training session, dictating the rules, and winning the game. You must win, ALWAYS, in one way or another.

Here are a few suggestions:

1) Try repeating the Down repeatedly, as quickly as you can. Sit, Down, Treat, get the dog back up, Sit, Down, Treat, get the dog back up, etc. Work on going as fast as you can. Then after maybe ten treats, go through the same steps, same tone of voice, same hand motions, but with no treat. Make this Down the LAST one. The idea to get the dog into such a quick and repeated mode of behavior that when you do the last one without the treat, the dog will be Down before it realizes you have no treat, or even it it does know there is no treat, it will drop down out of habit.

Play with how many repeated Downs you need to accomplish this. 5? 10? 15? Work with it. If you can get the dog to go Down on the last of several fast repeated Downs, then work with that for a while, but eventually, switch the no-treat Down to a different position besides the last Down. Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (no treat), 8, 9, 10.

If you can get ONE correct response going, and then start shifting its position randomly, it is like making a new deal with the dog. "You'll get a treat every time except one." From there, you start working on getting 2 downs with no treat out of ten. Then 3, randomly placed. Atc.

I come from a traing approach that deemphasizes food treats or any consistant reward. Many people reward the dog 100% of the time for a behavior that the dog has down pat. One reason the dog is resistent to performing without the promised reward is that it is used to ALWAYS getting it. It doesn't NEED the treat to perform the behavior. It is perfectly capable, just not willing!

You can do a couple other exercises that will help deemphasize food treats.

A. Simply try skipping the reward once or twice in a different behavior that your dog is very compliant and confident about. Maybe with Sit, which is probably the easiest command to teach any dog since they are going to do it any minute anyway. If you can get the variable reward schedule going on a Sit or a Come or whatever, then train it hard and often, and then try it with a different easy activity. Come back to the Down later after the dog has gotten the idea of variably scheduled rewards.

B. Put the dog in a Sit Stay, and sit on a chair or kneel right in front of it. Hold a treat, visibly and obviously, in one hand, but hold that hand out to your side. Stretch your arm straight out sideways as far as it will go. The idea is to get the dog to look at you, right in the eyes, and if it does, say "Good," and give it the treat. But as long as it looks at the treat, or maybe even gets up and goes after the far away hand, it gets nothing. And nothing means NOTHING. Not a word. No reprimand. Don't say, "No!" Don't move--unless you need to to keep the treat out of reach. The dog may go for the treat, look at the treat, or do flips in the air while passing gas, but you DO NOTHING because you don't care about what the dog is doing unless it looks at you.

Now you can proceed in two ways. A. To start, especially, you can give the dog a little help or a cue to look at you. Just say its name. Or say its name and point at your eyes with your other hand. The second the dog looks at you, give it the treat as fast as you can and say, "Good."

The other method, for patient trainers, is to just sit and wait. Eventually, the dog will probably look at you in confusion to say in effect, "What's going on?" Immediately give it the treat and say, "Good." The more you work on it, the easier it gets. The dog will sooner or later start off immediately by looking at you. Treat. "Good." You are teaching the pup to pay attention to YOU and not the TREAT. YOU are the key to the treat. Eventually, when you give a command to a well-trained dog, its attention should be on you and the command, not a treat.

C. A third method to get the dog to start going Down when you do not have a treat takes a little more time and patience, but it will work if you stick to it.

Start the training session with Sit, then Down with a treat. Second time, Sit, Down without a treat. (Use the same hand motions, but empty hand.) If the dog does not do something that resembles a Down the second time, pick up all your treats immediately, pack up, and leave. Session over. Ignore the pup for a few minutes. Then make believe nothing ever happened.

Maybe an hour or two later, repeat. Sit, Down, Treat. Sit, Down, No Treat. Dog doesn't do the Down without the treat? Pack up. Session over. Ignore dog for a few minutes. Then forget all about it. Go outside for a walk. Cuddle up and watch some TV with the pup. Life goes on. Later, or the next day, repeat again. Sit. Down. Treat. Sit. Down without the treat. No compliance again. Session over. Goodbye pup. Leave. Ignore.

When you get that second down, and you will eventually, without a treat, make a big fuss and pet the dog and tell it how good it is. (You are actually subsituting one reward for another at this point. Eventually, you will drop the praise, or just say a quiet, "Good.")

From there, you can add Down #3, and treat. Now you'll have 1) Down-treat. 2) Down-no treat. 3) Down-treat. You can add to it from there.

Now you can still have other training sessions in between in which you work on other behaviors as you usually would, but do not work on Down during these sessions. Message to dog: "We have fun training and get treats. When we do Down, the second time you must do it without the treat or I pack up and we're done."

In many dogs, you will cause a stubborn counter-reaction, and the dog will make a point of not going down on that second command. It may perform worse! It may stop going Down on the first command with the treat! It's called a temper tantrum! Teen-age rebellion. You don't care! No down on the second try, session over. Bye-bye doggy.

Just some suggestions to deemphasize the treat and get the dog moving toward a variable schedule of rewards--sometimes a reward, sometimes not--which I think is extremely important to establish as soon as possible!

Barry

[angellove]

Thanks Barry and Workindogz, for all your comments, looks like I have a busy weekend ahead.
:)

[MyRottie]

Me too Angellove!...LOL
Barry your methods also sound wonderful and I am going to give them a try ;) Thanks so much to everyone that took the time to help me out with this :D

[Judy Chrusch]

Barry,no one said give treats 100% of the time and feed her treat after treat you have to remember this is a 6 month old who has a loooong way to go till she's fully trained. I don't know what other people do in the way of treats but my treats are sometimes no more then a crumb, nothing that takes time to chew and get in to. Nothing of any amount where he neeeeeds the treat to perform ;). Now if someone is giving a half a bisquit or even a quarter, it's too much . Food rewards are only suppose to be temporary and why would you continue to give a treat if the dog has the training down pat, doesn't make sense Though I agree with some of the advice I never heard of your way of training that you discribed. I successfully raised 3 rotties and didn't have to train to the degree you mentioned. Is this a new way of training ;)?

angellove and MyRottie, time and patience and you will do fine :D.

Judy