only does "DOWN" with treats

[angellove]

Thanks again Judy,
The treats i give are a "gravy bone" split in half so it is about 1cm long, so only a tasty morsel

[WorkinDogz]

Give a command repeatedly......sit and wait for a positive response to reward......



How long do you wait; how long does the dogs look confused (I'd look confused too if someone said something to me in a different language; didn't show me what they meant; and stood there starring at me.....waiting..... ) do you bring snacks for yourself to munch on during the wait?????

This is completely.....how shall I say it..... "questionable" to me.

[Vicki]

One of my basic tenets of training is, if the current method isn't working, try something else. You got some good tips from Barry, try his suggestions and see what happens.

[BarryMcD]

Here are some LINKS TO CLICKER TRAINING SITES that can give a more complete idea of what this method is all about--for those who are interested.

1) Page associated with Karen Pryor. She was the one who brought CT to the world of dogs in the mid-1980's. I would begin here. From the horse's mouth!

http://clickertraining.com/home/


2) List of webrings on clicker training.

http://E.webring.com/hub?ring=clicktrain


3) Yahoo Discussion Group: Dogthink.
Welcomes all training questions, but is mostly Clicker oriented.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dogthink/


4) Obedience Page - Clicker Training.
A large amount of info and links.

http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm


5) Click and Treat.
The site of Gary Wilkes, one of today's active advocates and teachers of CT. A lot of stuff for sale--rather commercial--but some good articles and info.

http://www.clickandtreat.com/page1.htm


6) ClickerTrain.Com All Aboard!
A site sponsored by the Clicker Journal, a publication for trainers. Posts selected articles from the journal and other introductory info.

http://www.ClickerTrain.com/


7) ClickerSolutions Home.
A mailing list for those who like getting lots of mail!

http://www.clickersolutions.com/


8) Many more on the web. Just search on the term "clicker training."

Many of the sites contain links to on-line stores where you can purchase clickers, book, etc.

RECOMMENDED READING:

Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Prior. A seminal work that introduced clicker concepts to the world.

Clicking with Your Dog by Peggy Tillman. A kind of "Clicker Training for Idiots" book that shows step-by-step drawings that lead you through dozens of behaviors to train. Does not have much introductory or general info on the method, so best used after reading or studying other sources.

Happy clicking... or not. :p

[BarryMcD]

WorkinDogz said:

"Give a command repeatedly......sit and wait for a positive response to reward......How long do you wait; how long does the dogs look confused (I'd look confused too if someone said something to me in a different language; didn't show me what they meant; and stood there starring at me.....waiting..... ) do you bring snacks for yourself to munch on during the wait?????"

1. The suggestion to "give a down command repeatedly" was a specific exercise addressed to MyRottie because his dog would not go Down without a treat. It is not a standard clicker training technique, but a special exercise for a stubborn dog. The purpose of the exercise is to get the dog to Down quickly and repeatedly so that when the treat is unexpectedly withheld, the dog will probably do the Down anyway before it knows it because of the repetition. (Ever play Simon Says and follow the imstructions when the leader did not say Simon Says?)

You do understand that I was not saying to repeat "Down" a dozen times in a row while waiting for the dog to go Down? I was suggesting a series of Downs, each of which would be cued with the word "Down" once. As in most methods of training, I would never repeat a command more than once if the dog did not respond or execute it.

2. As for the waiting part: There are two ways of training any behavior in CT. One is called the Magnet Method. In this method, you DO prompt or lure the dog with food or hand movements to try to get it to execute the behavior, instead of waiting.

For example, we would train the beginnings of a Sit pretty much the same way as most methods: Hold a treat in front of the dog's nose and move it slowly over his head. The dog will look up and more times than not will sit simply because this allows him to comfortably follow the lure.

The only difference is in CT we do not issue a command "Sit" and then train the behavior. CT believes the behavior must be taught first. The name or command is attached to it later once the dog has the move down and as the use of the clicker is diminished.

The other method of training (which many Clicker Trainers believe is the best when it can be used becuae it seems to produce a more dependable and longer remembered response) is the Capture Method. In this method, we use the WAITING that you seem to think is so ridiculous.

For example, to train the same Sit behavior using Capture, you would sit on the old couch and wait for the dog to sit on its own. Now just about any dog is going to sit within a couple minutes if it is standing and you are not playing with it. So you make believe you are ignoring the dog, but keep observant and wait for it to sit--ON IT'S OWN. The second its butt hits the floor, CLICK, TREAT. By throwing the treat to it on the floor, we can get it to stand again so it is ready to execute another Sit. After a few minutes, when it Sits, I again CLICK as soon as its butt hits the floor, and TREAT. Repeat numerous times.

Now your post seems to indicate that you think hours or days of waiting in some kind of Buddhist meditation or potato chip eating frenzy is necessary to pass the long hours, but in fact, if you try this you will find almost all dogs will begin increasing the frequency of the Sit dramatically after only one or two 5 minute training sessions. Within a few days, the dog that you started with by waiting and watching for the Sit for several minutes will be Sitting so often you'll run out of treats!

Sit is a very simple behavior, and there are obviously more complex or less commonly executed natural behaviors. For example, I have never waited for a dog to get the idea in its head to try weaving through a row of weave poles. There I WOULD be waiting for eternity! But these more complex tasks are worked out in one of three ways.

A) Use the Magnet Method at first to lead the dog into the activity for the first few times, or...

B) Break the activity down into steps. For example, a dog isn't going to run the whole set of weave poles. But if I stand next to the first pole and wait, the dog at some point will probably go near the pole. (No, not a week later, but within a relatively short number of minutes.) Let's say it accidentally touches the first pole. CLICK. TREAT. I would repeat this over a number of days until the dog gets the idea that touching the pole = CLICK. TREAT. The dog WILL start performing this touch more and more often. And one of those times, it will step between the first and second pole, and when it does that, of its own volition, out of its own interest, without any cue from me, I CLICK and TREAT THE HECK out of it with a half dozen treats delivered in a row, and praise the dog excitedly.

And so we go on from there, step by step. This is called APPROXIMATING BEHAVIOR. Walking between the two poles is not the final behavior I want, but it is closer to that behavior than running away into the backyard, so as the dog approximates the desired behavior, I guide it slowly to do more and more closely what I want to achieve as the complete behavior. Soon, I will not click it for walking between the first two poles, but only if it then turns and starts to enter between the 2nd and 3rd poles. Etc.

3) The final method, which is what I would personally use for weave poles, is to use a target stick. First you clicker train the dog to touch its nose to the end of a long object. (I use the cardboard roll at the center of a roll of paper towels, with some red tape wrapped around the first couple inches or tip.) This is a very easy and quick task. You can just put some peanut butter on the tip the first few times and CLICK and TREAT when the dog touches the tip to eat it. Then with no food on the stick, you offer it and the dog will touch it again. You CLICK and TREAT. Very soon, you have a dog who will touch its nose to the tip of this stick any time he sees it.

I have trained a puppy in 3 five minute sessions to routinely and predictably touch the red taped tip almost every time the stick is offered. (Again, what you don't seen to appreciate his how FAST these animals pick up the behavior and begin repeating it!)

Once you've got the nose touch, you start slowly moving the stick so the dog has to follow to touch it. A little at first--just a few steps. Then farther, then halfway round the house. Each time he catches up, CLICK & TREAT. You now have a completely detached object (the stick) that the dog will follow. You need no leash, no collar, and you fade out the food rewards gradually so the dog just enjoys playing the game of "Follow and Touch the Stick" without a reward. You can now lead the dog right through the weave poles with the target stick, increasing the distance you require it to go before it gets a CLICK and TREAT.

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WorkinDogz stated: "how long does the dogs look confused (I'd look confused too if someone said something to me in a different language; didn't show me what they meant; and stood there starring at me.....waiting....."
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First mistaken notion: You say NOTHING to the dog in any language! You train the behavior without a verbal command and only add that later.

Second mistaken notion: The dog does not "look confused" because it doesn't even know it is being trained with the Capture Method. It is being operant conditioned to respond automatically to a given cue, but unlike traditional training, the cue is given when the behavior is completed successfully, not before the behavior.

Talk about confusion! Imagine I take my wife, who does not know how to dance, out onto the dance floor and say. "Dance." She has no idea what to do. "It's a waltz!" I insist. She still has no clue. She doesn't know how to do a waltz.

Now let's try it a different way. Without naming the dance, I will just get into dancing position and start stepping. If she steps wrong (for the waltz), I go back to starting position, ignore the wrong move and try again. Within a few tries she is bound to move the correct foot in the proper direction, so I CLICK. We try again, and she messes up. We try again, and she happens to do the right step again. CLICK. Any idiot within a few moments will figure out what the first step is! Then we start expecting the first step (no click) and wait until she happens to do a correct second step. Then CLICK. During all this, I have said nothing at all to her. She does not know what the name of the dance is. After a few weeks, by clicking appropriately, she gets the basic waltz step own. Then I say, That's called the WALTZ."

Back on the dance floor, I say WALTZ, and away we go. You see, the Command means nothing if you don't know what the action is. What IS confusing to a dog is to say "BLABETAKEN!" and point at its right paw, shove a treat into its mouth, lift you left hand into the air, and expect the dog to shake hands. You are asking to dog to perform a task it doesn't understand how to do by saying a word that is doesn't understand! Makes real sense, huh?

Just one last correction: In several of your posts, you seem to think that the clicker is clicked first, as a cue or command. (You mentioned once about an aggressive dog starting to attack and the owner clicking his clicker.) That is completely backwards. Again, the click stands for the end of the behavior. You do not click to cause a behavior. You click to tell the dog, "You just did it, and you completed it correctly." And like any type of training, you don't teach it in the middle of a crisis! You teach it at home in a controlled situation so you might one day AVOID the crisis!


BarryMcD

[roscoe]

What a wonderful debate. Nothing like a little fire and brimstone to raise the hackles, is there. Now if we could possibly, return, to addressing the members original concerns, I would hope the member would benefit greatly.