Las Vegas Obedience Trainers

[Pumacat]

yes, welcome to the board.

I am hoping that Fred shares his theories (just like he did on the previous post) and training advice and I am hoping that it doesnt just turn into endless posts defending or promoting his business or continous posts from people attacking him or his business.

[Fred Hassen]

Here is a picture of my dog "Bubba" jumping from the floor, on to a roof for a retrieve. link removed You will notice the collar there on his right back hip. Obviously, collars are adjustable to various levels, and we place them in different spots to help the dog learning to turn, or to place it on the back of his butt to have a kind of 'invisible hand' back there to help push his butt down to sit. I believe there may be pictures of other dogs with collars in various positions on the site as well. It is kind of funny though, because at every seminar as I explain it..........I say "There is always a fruitcake out here that is going to twist this into that I had the collar on the dogs balls".........and people laugh. Obviously it happens though. You'd get away with that maneuver for about a 1/2 second, and we certainly wouldn't be inviting the humane society to the seminars as we do. :-) One thing about dog training, is it has to look very humane for people to accept it. How it looks to the eye is very important. I like my dogs very fast, very motivated, and obedient. O.K. enough on that topic. Here is a little more food for thought.

Why do I take all the dogs out of the audience, and teach the people?

Here's why I do that. First of all, I always have my dog(s) with me, so I have my own personal base covered. Even if they are very young with a collar on, they are out there for all to see. If it was ugly......I wouldn't bring them, and would make excuses that they aren't trained enough yet etc. I would also not let puppy's come, if it were going to turn out bad. When you take into account that we have 40-60 people at most seminars, and there are all kinds of different breeds, and all kinds of different personalities.......shy dogs, timid dogs, aggressive dogs, trained dogs, untrained dogs etc, and more importantly ALL kinds of handlers, kids, grown-ups, people with lots of dog experience people with no experience, smart people, dumb people and everything else you can imagine. NOW........you throw all that into the mix, and on top of it, we invite anyone to bring a dog that they say has been 'ruined' with a collar, and we'll fix that too, cause it doesn't exist..........and before you go telling me I'm crazy, go get that dog and bring him to a seminar, and I'll SHOW you you are wrong, and 50 other people will witness it as well. I think this is the truest test for a positive training system for a number of reasons.

1. It shows it's effectiveness on ALL types of dogs.
2. It's all done in public.
3. We won't tell you that you need a different dog.
4. The people are doing it (not just me), so it shows the effectiveness of being able to teach it to others. If I am the only one that can do it, It's pretty useless, and our trainers that come through our school don't go out there and do extremely well again, and again. see link removed

Enough for today, and thanks for your time.........through comparison, the cream will always rise.

[Vista]

This thread remains open for anyone who would like to discuss training theory and practice. Please refrain from making it personal. We are not here to attack other members, nor are we here to promote anyone's commercial enterprise. Please keep this in mind when responding to this topic.

[alexav]

Originally posted by Vista
This thread remains open for anyone who would like to discuss training theory and practice. Please refrain from making it personal. We are not here to attack other members, nor are we here to promote anyone's commercial enterprise. Please keep this in mind when responding to this topic.

Agreed. (Challenging, but agreed.)
I would like to discuss the idea of Positive punishment and negative reinforcement vs. Positive reinforcement and Negative punishment.

A dog can learn SO much through positive motivation and reinforcement, and be corrected through the absence of the positive reinforcer.
A smart dog will need some proofing by a negative means, such as a collar and voice correction, to learn that sometimes there are negative consequences to thier actions, but it is through training positively and the bond they develop with thier handler that they learn what is expected.

Can someone please explain to me how it can be "humane" and fair to the dog to deliberately cause positive punishment with aversive techniques such as an e-collar, prong collar, or forcing into position to "teach" the dog? The dog learns. yes, but is all to make the pain errrr, "discomfort" stop.

Let's use some human examples;
I am teaching a foriegn language class. If I am using positive methods, I would first, help the student to say the new word. If he says it correctly, I say "Good!". If he is having trouble or pronounces the word incorrectly, I say "Oops, let's try that again." At the end of the class, my goal would be to end on a good note where perhaps the student says a whole phrase and his reward is a "great job!" and "Class dismissed!"

If I am using the methods of the type of trainer that I distain, I would say the new word to the student and then begin pinching him until he pronounced it correctly. If he tries to complain and leave the room, I would slap his face and physically place him back in his chair. This student would only be released when he could say the entire phrase of the lesson.

While both of these students could learn a foreign language successfully, our society would not permit the second teaching method for humans. In fact, anyone trying this would be fired quickly and probably prosecuted for abuse and assault!

The subject of my dismay is basically the "Khoeler Method" with electricity.
Anyone who truly understands dogs, respects and loves dogs, sees that these methods are unfair and inhumane.
Others that just want the animal to obey and they don't care how or why, will persue these methods and will go with the trainer that promises them the fastest results.
It's the dog that has no choice...

[rottnvegas]

Alexav wrote: "The subject of my dismay is basically the "Khoeler Method" with electricity.

Well, the method used by the trainer in question here uses a little different method, using his own words, "it's the I SAID SO method!"

I think this is a sad state of affairs and unfair to the dogs, he is very good at getting lots of unsuspecting pet owners that just want a quick fix. I got lucky, I did some research on the internet before I paid him any money and found some very dissapointing information on him over at website edited out. It seems some high end professional trainers over there have a little bit of a different opinion of his "methods".

Again, I got lucky, some people don't have that luxury to shop around before they buy.

I have been training with a VERY reputable trainer here in Vegas and one out of California since and my dog is just awesome. Bites are firm, full, and very intense. Not like the doberman I saw at Fred's club that was back tied to a fence and spinning around so fast just to avoid taking a bite. They were forcing the dog to take a bite with compulsion and the dog wasn't having any of it. It would take a very shallow bite and do a very fast circle trying to avoid the sleeve. It was very sad.

My fiance was appaled that they had a Donovan Pincher they were trying to teach the forced retrieve on a picnick bench. The dog was screaming with pain so loud, my fiance and I were both wincing.

My dog's obedience is very solid as well and I didn't get him to where he was by burning the crap out of him either. I used something called the "gentle guidance" system. Yes it used the e-collar but just the method is called, it is very gentle and humane. Never once did my e-collar trainer tell me I needed to attach the collar to my dog's genitals either.

I also used lots of positive reinforcement and fair compulsion to back it up taught by the finest trainer Vegas has to offer.

The results speak for themself, he loves to work, he bites very hard (just ask any decoy who has taken a bite from him through a hard sleeve, he rips the hair off the decoys arms through the hard sleeve) it is very impressive I'm told.

By the way, not once has my dog let out a shrill of pain, imagine that???? ;)

[Fred Hassen]

Alexav writes: If I am using the methods of the type of trainer that I distain, I would say the new word to the student and then begin pinching him until he pronounced it correctly. If he tries to complain and leave the room, I would slap his face and physically place him back in his chair. This student would only be released when he could say the entire phrase of the lesson.


Fred Hassen: My commonsense answer would be that you would not be able to do that to kids or dogs in the middle of people's streets, or in public parks, and be in business for very long.

[Fred Hassen]

Rottnvegas writes: I have been training with a VERY reputable trainer here in Vegas and one out of California since and my dog is just awesome.


Fred Hassen: Glad to hear that things are going well for you. I'm sure I'll have the chance to see your 'just awesome' training one day. The dog does always tell the story............that much, you have no argument. Like we say at the bottom of all of our seminar promos......."Bring your dog, we'll have ours".

[Burnsway]

Fred man, your disappointing me. You are not even trying to defend these accusations. It's as if you are saying, yea I do this stuff, wanna see why and how it works come on over. First time is even free.....

So my question is: Do you put electricity to dogs penis's and do you zap them till they cry out into horror and are a nervous wreck? Or are these rumors?

[Fred Hassen]

Burnsway writes: So my question is: Do you put electricity to dogs penis's and do you zap them till they cry out into horror and are a nervous wreck? Or are these rumors?


Why would you put a collar on a dog's penis? No, I have never put a collar there........didn't think I needed to answer that stupidity. Another poster stated about seeing the video, and there is a collar on the dog's belly, and unfortunately for the person that wrote the post, I am very sad to announce that "Maddy" was a female, and did not have a penis. You are welcome to email me and I will send you a copy of the video, so you can then go back and read the post about all the horror going on in the video, and then you can question my credibility, or the credibility of the poster. BTW, this video is given out all the time, so I have no problem sending one to anyone that would like to see it. On another note, that scene was actually taken where I was the special guest speaker at a police seminar. There were numerous police officers from all over the world that are in that crowd of people standing there......they are all police people. It is taken in the middle of a parking lot, and the Tucson humane society is also in attendance there. They actually brought dogs that we demonstrated in public. I know, I know........let me guess, the Tucson humane society stands around with dogs screaming and being shocked, and with collars on dog's testicles. The reason that the Tucson Humane Society brought the dogs, was that they had already been to one of my seminars. We invite the humane society to ALL of our seminars. I thought that these questions would all be pretty much answered by my first post when I explained that everything is in public and anyone is free to watch. Stop by if you are ever in Las Vegas.........Bring your dog, we'll have ours. After you come by and see things, go back and read all this stuff over again. Then you can question the integrity of the person writing it, or our integrity. Just an itty bitty, teeny, weeny, ounce of intelligence tells you that there would be no reason to put anything on a dogs penis, not a leash, not a clicker.......nothing. Do you have any more intelligent questions for me?

[Burnsway]

Originally posted by Fred Hassen
You are welcome to email me and I will send you a copy of the video, so you can then go back and read the post about all the horror going on in the video, Do you have any more intelligent questions for me?

Yes, if admin will allow it I would like, if you have them uploaded on the computer a link to these videos. Unfortunantly I learned a long time ago not to accept free gifts through snailmail or email.....:D

[Fred Hassen]

Burnsway writes: Yes, if admin will allow it I would like, if you have them uploaded on the computer a link to these videos. Unfortunantly I learned a long time ago not to accept free gifts through snailmail or email.....



Fred Hassen: See, and then they blame the troublemaking on me. :-) Whatever makes your boat float. Thousands are sent out yearly, no one's mailbox has blown up, and you can always find us, cause we are listed in the yellow pages, do a local radio and T.V. show, and our internet radio show is coming on in January. I'm not as proud as you...........you can freely send me video of your dogs working, and I'll take my chances of giving out my snail mail address. Hey........look at the bright side, I mean how can you not have more motivated, tail waggin dogs than me?? Anyone else that wants to take me up on the offer, feel free, and feel free to report back if your mailbox blows up. :-)
Bring your dogs, we'll have ours.

[Burnsway]

Originally posted by Fred Hassen

See, and then they blame the trouble-making on me. :-) Whatever makes your boat float.

No, if the video's are as good and innocent as you say, I can't see a problem with the whole forum seeing them and developing their own opinion. Now because you are a business, I can on the other hand see Admin objecting if it is a sales pitch video. But if it is live moving shots proving yourself and talent, I myself wouldn't see it as you being a troublemaker.....;)

[Burnsway]

Thanks......:D

[Fred Hassen]

It was nice chattin with you all, but more productive questions in other spots. Keep your chins up, your eyes open......and keep on comparing. Bring your dogs, we'll have ours. Take care.